Season 1, Episode 4: Aysha B.

CD: Hi everyone, welcome to this episode of OutSpoken Noire, Black lesbian coming out stories. Today we're speaking with Aysha Boston. Hi Aysha.

AB: Hey, hey.

CD: And can you give everyone your pronouns?

AB: My pronouns are she/her.

CD: Perfect. And Aysha, I just kind of jump in.

AB: Go for it.

CD: So my first question for you is to think back on the first time in your life you realized that you were a lesbian.

CD: So that's really interesting. I would say I never recognized being different. I think because the way I grew up, I grew up with a lot of boys, a lot of, a lot of, um, my cousins were older guys, mostly guys.

And so we, I kind of just adapted to my environment. So it didn't really seem different because everybody treated me like I was just the homie. I was one of the guys. But for me, I realized I didn't have an attraction to the guys, the people I was spending the majority of my time with, who I was supposed to have an attraction to. And so I think like my family kind of put this fear inside of me, like, you know, if you're going to be hanging out with guys, you need to protect yourself and be more alert of things that happen when you're young.

And so I just saw myself as an equal and a lot of times they saw me as an equal so it really didn't feel different. The only thing that felt different I will say is that I was a tomboy. I had a tomboy style and so people projected a lot onto me that way, but never in my mind did I think my attraction was different.

CD: Yeah. So how old were you when you realized I'm not attracted to boys? And liked hanging out with them and sort of being one of them.

AB: I would say I was probably like 15. Like, we'll say between 13 and 15 because I guess that's when you know they started getting interested in girls and so it's like, you know, it's seeing them and hearing them and talking to them and having the language and the conversation that I'm having with them that kind of piqued my interest, and just looking at women

CD: Yeah, oh! Ok, interesting! Okay…

AB: Yeah, right, like  you're in the conversations, they're like, oh, look at her, oh, look at that booty, and it's like, after a while, you just look. [both laughing]

CD: Yeah, right.

AB: And so it became very comfortable for me to find that attraction. And then, like with sports, kind of the stigma that comes with sports, like I fell into it. I'm not gonna lie, like it felt like the culture though. I was a basketball player in high school -- well, I played while I was young, but middle school, high school, and in college I played basketball. And so it is kind of embedded in the in the culture, but it's also projected a lot. Like I could have clearly chose to play straight. You know, yeah, I could have chosen.

CD: Yeah.

AB: Yeah, so but I would say the attraction happened like maybe right when I was getting to high school.

CD: Okay, so your friends are like starting to notice girls more and they start kind of calling girls out or calling everyone's attention to girls they find attractive. When you started expressing interest in the women they were pointing out, or the girls that they were pointing out, how was that received by your group of guy friends?

AB: Yeah, I mean they honestly…I don't…sometimes I wonder if they even realized I was a girl.

CD: Yeah okay.

AB: Yeah because it felt so natural and organic. Like even if I was to say something they never thought of me as gay and they never saw me as anything but this non-binary -- like they obviously didn't have the terms for it-- but this just non-binary figure that was there. And they cared more about the love that they had for me as a person than anything else. As long as they could pick me up for a game of basketball or football, I was another body to them. And they all protected me too, so that's the other thing.

CD: That's a plus.

AB: Right?

CD: Nice. Okay, and I want to know more about playing basketball. I feel like basketball plays a role in a lot of Black lesbian coming out stories, or a lot of lesbian coming out stories, because there is that stereotype of women basketball players being gay. And as you said, a lot of times it's just projection. Some people will just kind of assume until proven differently. But do you think that playing sports acted as a refuge for you? I mean, was it a safe space to express your sexuality?

Or do you think that it was kind of like being with your guy friends and you could just talk about girls and it was just a given and no one really worried about labels?

AB: Oh that is such a good question. I would say a little bit of both.

CD: Okay.

AB: I think when you're young obviously there are like no other spaces you can go. You know you can't go to the club, it's still very much so a secret or a closeted thing, depending on your household. And so because I was dedicated to something that was still constructive, like I felt like my dad or my family could never take that away from me, even if it was, you know, I was indulging in that culture or I was being hella gay. Like they weren't gonna tell me you can't you can't play basketball. That's pretty much like saying “You gotta stop going to school, you can't have friends.” Like they would have had to take so much away from me that I'm lucky to have had that to continue to express my attraction.

CD: Yeah. And have that safe space and like-minded people.

AB: Right.

CD: Okay, so let's go back a little bit and then later we'll come back to high school. I mean, that was a formative year for a lot of people, and I think especially for queer people. I guess all teenagers are kind of coming into their own around that time, but there's that added component when you're also recognizing your sexuality during that time, and we'll talk about that in a bit. But I'm interested in going back to your parents, you brought them up, and their recognition that basketball played a really big role in your life in terms of keeping you focused on something constructive and good for you, and therefore, maybe not wanting to separate you, even if they recognized that that meant you were a part of, you know, a culture that has a certain stereotype.

Did it bother your parents, like, any sort of perceived lesbian-ness? Or [was it] just kind of like, you don't say anything, we won't say anything. What kind of parents did you have?

AB: Yeah, so, I would say I had that don't ask, don't tell relationship with my parents. But there was also a lot of stuff going on in my life, like my parents were also getting a divorce. I think there were more pressing things that kind of took precedence to my sexuality, and me developing as a teenager in general. So they noticed it, but it was kind of like [they were dealing with their own stuff.]

And it was weird because they didn't discipline me for being gay. They just didn't. My mom did, but my dad just didn't acknowledge it. Like I could call my dad right now, like, hey, I'm gay. And he would be like, okay, what did you do today? And like, totally ignore it. Totally ignore it. Like he just does not enjoy having those types of conversations.

And so I was also privileged and lucky, too, because my brother is also gay. My brother is eight years older than me. And so he kind of bit the bullet a little bit with the wrath. But even still, he came out first, so he took the brunt of it.

So yeah, so I wouldn't even say he came out. I would say it was…I guess they just knew.

CD: Okay, yeah.

AB: Yeah, I actually think I came out before my brother, but because, I guess like, his expression kind of gave it away. And so my mom kind of eased in conversations to my dad about it and he gave it the same regard, but was still very…still had a distant demeanor. [His attitude was] still like well, you're my child but also, I only do the bare minimum to keep this relationship maintained.

CD: Oh, okay. So is it like that to this day? That your parents just sort of know but are just not going to talk about it?

AB: Well they definitely know now. I don't hide anything. So my parents know for sure about me. My mom is very engaged in my life and my partner’s. My dad doesn't, but it's also because he moved out of state. But I also…I don't think he would be any more engaged than he is now. And our family pretty much knows about me.

CD: Yeah. Okay. And so back to high school. So playing basketball, you have your group of guy friends, you're starting to notice girls. Did you start dating at this time?

AB: I did. I had my first relationship in the eighth grade.

CD: Oh, okay.

AB:  It was really interesting because I think naturally and organically when you're an athlete you see the, you know, the stud or the masculine-presenting woman and that's the attraction because it's very easy to normalize that because you're supposed to be naturally attracted to men.

And so you see this, you know, really attractive masculine-presenting woman and you're like okay this is this is easy, like no one can even tell we're both women; it's cool. So I dated a masc-presenting woman for my first queer relationship and it was interesting because I'm also very masc-centered.

CD: I was going to ask you if you presented like you present now.

AB: So I would say yes and no. No in [terms of] presentation.  So I dressed more feminine because I didn't have the autonomy to buy my clothes.

CD: Mm-hmm.

AB: But mentality and demeanor I was very much so masculine-centered.

CD: Yeah, okay. And so did you enjoy that relationship? Was it more just kind of early exploration of what it meant to be dating? I mean, was it even a significant relationship for you?

AB: Yeah, I would say so. I think it was because it was also my first sexual experience, so when people talk about losing their virginity, like I lost my virginity to a woman for the first time. So it had a lot of sentiment, too, because a lot of people in the culture, like when you get more deep into it and you hear “studs”, and your “soft studs”, or a.k.a. “androgyny”…

CD: Right, so many terms…

AB: Yeah, and so she was kind of on the spectrum of soft studs, so I got that emotional attachment still.

And so it was a good [relationship]. I thought it was a very organic relationship because it was like I still got the softness of a woman but I still, as I was transitioning into my sexuality, had something that was tangible for me to hold on to as far as attraction. Cause I didn't understand attraction at that point.

CD: Right, right. Okay. So how long did that relationship last?

AB: I would say a year.

CD: Oh, that's a long relationship.

AB: Yeah, it was. I mean, we played sports, so we had to see each other.

CD: Okay.

AB: Like, you know, we spent summers together traveling and practicing, and then the school year came and then I saw them at games and volunteering and just being in the community. So we had access to each other a lot.

CD: Okay, that's convenient. So I'm curious, during this time when you had this first girlfriend or first partner, did other people know? Or [did people just think] oh, they hang out a lot together…?

AB: Yeah, we tried to hide it a lot, but I think because she was masc-presenting, it was kind of hard. You know, it's natural for people to assume when they see someone that's masc-presenting that you're dating them, no matter what. It's just inevitable. You know, you could be their sister and they're like, oh, is this you?

It's kind of inevitable to mask those types of relationships because you're either going to seem more suspicious because you are with this person and hiding it, or you're just not going to care because you know that the relationship between you and that person is platonic. But either way, people are still going to project how they want to.

CD: Right. And so you were saying earlier that you feel like your friends were just kind of like, that's the homie. They didn't really worry about gendering you or labeling you with any kind of label for your sexuality. Your parents were kind of like, you don't say anything, I won't say anything. So when did you first start thinking of yourself as a lesbian since no one else was using the language? [both laughing]Like when did you find that language for yourself and what was the kind of genesis of that language in terms of how you thought of yourself?

Meaning, you know, some people start with I'm just a tomboy. Okay wait, no, maybe I'm bi and then they kind of work their way wherever they end up.

AB: Yeah, I would say that transition between high school and college was when it was official for me because at that point I had a car, I had my plans ready to go to college. And I think my [class] year, my graduating class, were advocates for just like, we're gonna live the type of school year that we want to live; we're gonna take control of our school.

So I had an incident where I was dating  my high school sweetheart and we were like “relationship goals” at the time and so everybody voted us to be Class Couple for the yearbook. But the editor, the teacher that was editing the yearbook, was like no, yeah I don't want that in my yearbook; parents don't want that in my in their yearbook. Like [parents] had a whole petition like no this is not what we want, because I went to a very elitist high school in Detroit.

CD: What year was this?

AB: 2009.

CD: Okay, that's pretty progressive for 2009 for a class to want a same sex couple.

AB: Yeah, we were on it. And so you know we you know fought back and tried to get it to go through and follow through, but they end up taking the whole category out of the yearbook.

CD: Oh! Ew!

AB: Right? Ew. So gross. So gross.

CD: It is!

AB: Yeah. Right. And so discriminatory, and all these other things that I [hadn’t really experienced] at that point, but it was at that moment that I felt prideful. Like other people see me, other people hear me, other people recognize that love is what you make it. And so for me, it just felt empowering to go into college knowing who I was from that experience.

CD: That's amazing that everyone rallied behind you. Boo to your school admin [both laughing], but like, to know that your class is behind you. Yeah, that's awesome.

And so moving into college, you have more autonomy, I'm assuming. Like you said, you had a car, you were going away from -- did you go away from home for school?

AB: Yeah, about an hour and a half.

CD: OK, yeah, I mean, that's a good little distance. Do you think it was sort of easier to kind of put a name to who you were, or use a label, or just be out in less of a y'all know what's going on here and more of a this is who I am kind of way since you were away from home and had more agency?

AB: No, actually I kind of just fell back into that stereotype of being an athlete.

So I wasn't forward with my sexuality, but I didn't deny the fact that I like women. I think I was also still exploring my sexuality a little bit.

CD: Okay.

AB: Because I had the room to do it.

CD: In what way?

AB: So, I was talking to guys, I think at that point I had lost my virginity to a guy, so I was really seeing if I could still be myself and date guys. Like date guys, except, you know, as this less than beautified woman who, you know, is a tomboy, [like could I date guys] who actually had an interest in just me.

CD: Right, yeah.

AB:  And I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't say that they didn't, I just wasn't confident in myself enough to be like I could date a man and also still look like him.

CD: Yeah.

AB: Yeah, I struggle with that a lot. And as I grew up, I grew into my womanhood and understood what attraction looks like. But yeah, no, not at that moment.

CD: You said a few times, “I didn't know what attraction was,” or like, “I had to learn what attraction looks like.” When you say that, what do you mean?

AB: I guess I mean authentic attraction. I was in a place where I was normalizing attraction a lot [meaning] this is what it's supposed to look like like if I'm masculine…I was using a lot of binaries. So if I'm masculine, than a person I'm with has to be feminine, or if I'm feminine then I have to be with a guy. So then it's like, well how can you be with a guy but not a masc-presenting person? So I was dealing with all of these different layers to my attraction.

CD: Okay, and so then figuring out what attraction is for you was just basically realizing there doesn't have to be rules.

AB: Right, yeah, I needed to get out of that binary physical attraction.

CD:  Yeah, okay, right, right, I understand that, yeah. I think that that's a challenging one. Like I'm a Leo and so I when I do these interviews I'm always like don't talk about yourself Courtney! But it's interesting because everyone says things that bring up new things for me and I realized when you said that just now, it made me think of when I first came out the first couple of women I went on dates with told me I had to identify as bisexual because I had dated men before. And you know, when you're new you think that there are all these rules you just don't know, and so it's almost like I have to let the more experienced lesbians tell me what's what and it did take some time for me to get to a place, like you were saying, where it was like I can do whatever the hell I want.

AB: Right.

CD: Yeah, like there are no like rules, like qualifications, or eligibility requirements, right? So yeah, I totally get that. It's a big step. I'm glad you figured that out.

AB: Me too. And I mean, you know, it's no one's fault because we're basing how relationships are supposed to be off, you know, mass media and what we see, what we have representation of. So it is a challenge because you have to really explore. And that was one thing, I mean off topic, but like your 20s is literally for you to explore that.

CD: I don't think that's off-topic at all. [both laughing]

AB: Yeah, like give yourself the time. If you want to explore same-sex relationships, if you want to explore polyamory, like do all those things. Not saying that you can't, you know, [always] do that, but the 20s are explorative for you to build that catalyst of understanding that attraction.

CD: For sure, yeah. I 100% agree with that. So you mentioned representation, and you do learn norms based on what's presented to you. And we all learn heteronormativity because we live in this binary, patriarchal society. Do you remember the first time you saw representation, like someone you looked at and you were like, oh like she reminds me of me or they remind me of me?

AB: I would say I was young. I wasn't a teenager. My grandmother had a best friend who, no one ever talked about her being queer or anything, like we still don't know to this day, you know, bless her soul. She passed away years ago, but she was older, and she wore men's clothes, but it was like kind of acceptable. And she, you know, had a gold tooth and she drank beer. Like, I didn't see women drinking beer. Like she was just the homie. Like she was cool, down to earth. And I think sometimes it's a misconception about “being the homie” and “down to earth” because it's not sexualized, that people create these narratives about people's lives. So just like I created this narrative about her life, for me to this day, until someone tells me differently, I think that was a queer grown woman and that was my first representation of it without knowing how to name it other than she was the homie.

CD: Yeah, right. We had people like that, my sister and I, growing up that just always came around with our cousin and it was like “this is the homie”. So I wonder, I'm just interested in your take, why do you think especially in the Black community it's very common to have lesbians or gay men -- but I guess we'll just stick to lesbians since that’s what OutSpoken Noire is about -- who are quote unquote sort of “obviously queer”. And you know, they never bring men around. Like you said, they dress differently, that kind of thing. They are not aligned with what we think of when we think of femininity, as it's been sort of taught to us through socialization.

Why do you think it's easier for people to just kind of, as you said earlier, sort of don't ask, don't tell. Just kind of have this understanding without naming it. What are people so averse about labels for, do you think?

AB: So, I mean, I guess I can only speak from my perspective, but you know, spirituality and religion was really huge, and if it wasn't in the Bible then it didn't exist.

CD: Right.

AB: And so you know they talk about women looking one specific way, or they have very specific pictures and representations of what women look like, and so then we create these norms. So I'm not really sure why it was so taboo to be tomboyish or queer, it's just, you know, it's one of those things that's swept under the rug because it's not something you can really cure, you can only show your true colors.And I don’t even want to say “cure”, but there’s no way to force someone to not have that attraction. And so because people can’t control you in that way, they don’t think to deal with it.

CD: Yeah.

AB: Or talk about it, you know. It's either like, I'm going to accept you or I'm not gonna deal with it at all. And so people, when they're at that point, that's a really traumatic and also life-altering conversation that you have to have with people because you see their true colors afterwards, a lot of times, when you have a conversation.

CD: Yeah, so do you think like maybe some people just find it easier to accept who someone is as long as they don't have to like name it? Because the alternative is not having them around or having to make a... condemn them.

AB: Yeah, exactly.

CD: Yeah. That's interesting. I just I think about like, especially in doing these interviews, like how so many of us had these women who came before us where it's kind of like, you know, they set an example and they also, like,  lived as younger people during a time when it just wasn't as acceptable and they had to deal with a very different society, but they were present and visible. And you know, many of them didn't get married and that kind of thing, and they had their “roommate” for 30 years… [both laughing]

AB: And life was good.

CD: Yeah, they just never named it. So, I'm just always interested in that, and we have so much more freedom now to like express ourselves.

Anyway, so as it stands now, you do identify as a lesbian?

AB: Queer.

CD: Queer, okay. Yeah. And so why not lesbian?

AB: Um, I mean, queer has always just been the word that…I don't really like labels.

CD: Okay.

AB: So yeah, queer is just all-encompassing. I am emotionally attached to, or emotionally attracted to, women. Physically, too. But, I know at the end of the day, if I have a life partner, it's going to be a woman.

CD: Yeah.

AB: And so, queer is just the easiest way for me to identify my attraction.

CD: Okay, yeah. I asked that because I had grappled with how I was going to describe this project to people because I find that people use the term lesbian far less than they used to, and I've wondered is it an antiquated word? Like is this one of those words that's just going to become almost like “dyke” where it's sort of strange to say after a certain point. And I've heard people who think of themselves as lesbian kind of like, almost stutter when they start to say it. It's like this thing that sometimes, I think it has a different connotation or something than queer, which maybe for our age group is just easier to say, and I think that's interesting because queer used to be almost a slur and now we're moving more towards that.

AB: It's reclaimed.

CD: It is definitely reclaimed. For sure been reclaimed. Yeah, so I'm just interested in like the genesis of the language and why some people people describe themselves as lesbian and why some people don't. And it's all valid, of course.

AB: Yeah that that has been on my mind a lot lately. So I'm a member of this blog and storytelling [collective] called The Biqueer.

AB: Okay. So yeah my actually my partner is reclaiming the the term bisexual and using queer as the, you know, it's the world that you live in as you're being a bisexual person in a queer world essentially. And so kind of illustrating and telling different stories that fall in line with that spectrum. And so I realized how fluid [sexuality is] -- so you have to think of sexuality in so many ways.

You have sexual orientation, and then you have how you identify. And so you have all these layers that can't be “straight ticketed”, if you use it as a way to think of it. And so you're not going to check every box that's in that column sometimes. And so queer is a little fluid.  It's a little more fluid.

CD: It’s more radical.

AB:  Yeah, it’s more radical, and it allows for you to take the binaries off of attraction.

CD: No, just--so The BiQueer--so “queer” is kind of genderless, right, or like an agendered term?  And so then your partner uses The BiQueer to mean what, together? Because bi--I feel like the controversy around bisexuality is that it does indicate the existence of a binary to a lot of people, and so they take issue with it.

AB: Yeah, so well she is the BiQueer so it started as her storytelling, and telling her narrative and everything from her perspective.

And so now she's kind of incorporating different language, different identities, different stories into the BiQueer. And so it's just creating this collaboration of new meaning. So, you know, the queerness obviously allows anybody to show up to the table. It's not centering bisexuals or any type of binary. So, yeah, I guess you would have to have a conversation with her.

CD: Yeah, yeah. No, but that's really interesting. And so, yeah, thank you for talking through why you've chosen queer over lesbian, or just chosen it for yourself, not necessarily over anything, I should say.

So now I'm just kind of interested in how you exist now as a person moving through the world, as a queer person moving through the world. Do you feel like there are any challenges that are specific to your queerness, or that you have to consider that maybe other people don't? Or [that] hetero people, or people who present in more “traditionally feminine” ways have to worry about?

AB: Yeah, I'm pretty privileged in that respect. Detroit is pretty hippie-ish and so like the scenes that I'm kind of in replicate the person that I am. And it's easy to find those cultures and those things. I'm kind of still in a college town, too. I'm also a grad student, so I'm allowed a lot more territory and space than most people have. I've also worked in corporate and so I haven't had any noticeable encounters with anyone, you know, based on my sexuality or my presentation.

CD: Good, yeah. And what do you see for yourself moving forward as a queer person? And that's another, I guess, aspect of the question is to what extent is your queerness even important to you when you think about who you are, and your goals, and that kind of thing?

AB: Yeah, that's a great question because I'm in this group therapy class right now, and we talk about that pretty often. We just did an exercise where we kind of listed off, or I guess numbered off, you know, where we saw our identity. And so sexuality has never really been a priority for me in my life.

Just recently, in dating my partner, I've had to be more engaged in my identity and be more thoughtful about the things that I say. And I'm always kind of evolving my thoughts around attraction. But yeah, people just see me and I appreciate that. Maybe it's the energy, maybe it's, you know, the places I... I'm just the homie. I don't know what she is, she's cool. [both laughing]

CD: Yeah, great, the homie always.

AB: Yeah, I'm just the homie. So, yeah, I've never really had to think about sexuality that much.

CD: That's nice. Do you think you have to think about it more when you're in a relationship? Like how you present or how you're going to refer to yourself? Because in that sense it can kind of reflect also on your partner. And it's okay if the answer is “No”. [both laughing]

AB: Yeah, like really I guess just with queer I just have to be more mindful to see visibility across the spectrum and not close off myself to attraction of anyone.

CD: Yeah.

AB: So yeah, just really taking off those limitations.

CD: Wow, okay, yeah. You live a very freed life. [laughing] There are no labels…

AB: You know, it feels good.

CD: Yeah.

AB: 2020 has shown me anything…do what feels right.

CD: You just got to do you. The world is burning. [laughing]

AB: All around us.

CD: Yeah, yeah, you have to find joy where you can for sure. Well, my last question is my standard last question, which is for folks who are coming out or grappling with sexuality, what words of advice do you have?

AB: The advice that I would give someone who is going through the motions of understanding themselves and their identity, I would say find as much representation as you can. It's out here. Explore, get exposed to the culture because you'll learn a lot more about yourself the more embedded you are in that culture.

CD: Yeah. That's awesome advice, and I think community is 100% central to feeling comfortable in your authentic self. I feel like your vibe is just authenticity. Like, that's been the common thread since you were in middle school. You're like, I'm just gonna do me.

AB: Yeah, yeah. Just do it.

CD: Very on-brand advice there.

AB: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Deal with the repercussions later. And I, let me not say that because some people really go through some really traumatic experiences. Yeah. But if it's within your willpower and your ability to be authentic, at least if nothing else, be authentic to yourself.

CD: Right. Awesome. Well, thank you Aysha for joining us today and dropping the gems and sharing your authenticity with everyone. So yeah, do you want to say bye to the people?

AB: Yeah, thanks for having me, Courtney. I appreciate it. Can't wait to hear it. I'll be open to questions if anybody has some afterward. But yeah, just check me out on Instagram, @urbanwomxn.

CD: Okay.

AB: Also, check out the BiQueer on Instagram. We do a lot of programming and attaching the community to education.

CD: Awesome. Thank you!

AB: Yeah, thank you.