Season 1, Episode 5: Amber C.

CD: Hi, I’m going to be talking with Amber today about her coming out story, of course, so Amber! Can we just start with your pronouns?

AC: Yes, I go by she/her.

CD: And do you feel like “lesbian” is the most accurate term to describe your identity?

AC: Yes, I identify as a lesbian.

CD:  Okay great, and so let's get to the nitty gritty.

AC: Yeah.

CD: So when did you come out and what was that process like?

AC: So I was actually thinking about this for a while. I think I felt like I came out a couple of times, but no one believed me.

CD: Yeah?

AC: Yes.

CD: Okay.

AC: I felt like I came out around 10 or 11 to my friends. I was just basically expressing to them, you know, how I was having some feelings or some thoughts and that I felt like I liked girls. And based on their responses and some of my cousins' responses, it was kind of like, No, like none of us think like that.

And so I was like, Oh, okay, well, maybe I shouldn't talk about it because something's wrong if no one else is thinking the way that I think. And then again, at about 15, so I am a teen mom, and my now ex-husband, we were junior high sweethearts. And I remember telling him when we were 14 or 15, I was just like, you know, I-- and I was actually pregnant with my son, I had him really early. I was like, “I think that I like girls.” And he made a joke. He's like, “Well, I like girls too.” And then I was just like, “But no, like, I really think that I like girls. Like, I like them.” And he was just like, “Well, maybe it's a phase and you'll get over it.” So I'm like, OK, it's a phase. So that was two times.

And then I remember I was on the city bus with my mom, and we were going to the laundromat or something, and this beautiful girl gets on the bus. And I'm like, I'm staring at her. And it's so funny because I recently did a podcast a couple of months ago and I was talking about my coming out story, and I was talking about my mom, and my mom's like, I don't remember this at all.

And I'm like, and this is before I knew like, you know, gay, lesbian, bisexual, like all the different, you know, [terms]. I was just like, “Mom, I think I'm gay.” And she's said, “Well, you're definitely not gay because you have Edward and you're going to have a baby.” And I said, “…but I really like girls. And I'm just like that. I like girls.” She's like, “No, that's just a phase. It's probably your hormones.” And I said, Oh, okay, it's a phase, it's a phase. And so-

CD: Are you and your mom really close? Like what's the deal with that?

AC: Yeah.

CD: Okay, so you felt comfortable with-

AC: Yeah, I felt comfortable with my mom.

And so, I went on about my life. I got married at 18, and I always had these thoughts. And I was just kind of like, Well, it's a phase and eventually it'll go away and I'm just gonna keep on living my life.

And don't get me wrong. I love Edward, my ex-husband. He's a great, great father but I was just kind of like going through the motions because everyone was telling me that it's a phase, and what I'm thinking, like I'm tripping… and I didn't have gay friends or lesbian friends. I had two aunts that were lesbian, but I never talked to them about anything, and they never talked to me. It was kind of like something that we all knew about, but no one spoke about it, you know, so.

CD: Very Black.

Yeah, and so I just kind with the motion of what society says, you know. And I went to a party one night—

CD:  How old were you at this time.?

AC: I was 18. And I met a family friend which would turn out to be my first girlfriend, and the first masculine-presenting-- I'm attracted to more like masculine women. And I saw her and I just could not take my eyes off of her. And I just like felt so flushed, and I just thought, Oh my gosh, like she's like gorgeous.

CD: Yeah.

AC: You know? And so we ended up talking and I ended up-- and I was married too-- and I ended up starting a relationship with this woman for about a good six to eight months. I came home one day to my mom and I had told her, I said, “You know, I'm seeing somebody.” And she was like, “You're not seeing anybody besides Edward.” And I just told my mom, like, “Be nice.” And she was just like [confused].

And so there was [this thing] that we didn't speak about, and this is why I'm saying like I felt like I came out a couple of times but but no one ever heard what I was saying. It was kind of brushed off to the side.

CD: Right, so can I ask you: do you think that at any of those points…like, did it ever occur to you to just go forth and act on what you were feeling without waiting for people to believe you, or did that feel really critical to legitimizing your identity?

AC: I think that's when I had, I don't know if it was like an “opportunity”, but when I ended up meeting my first girlfriend, I kind of just like dove in.

Like when she started talking to me, I was just like, What's up? And I asked her a million and one questions. It was like, “This is what I think, this is how I feel. And no one listens to me, and blah, blah, blah. And while I'm talking to you, I think you're really hot. So like, what's going on?” you know? And so that was really me just kind of diving into this lifestyle.

I came out to my, at the time, my husband, because… I'm a mom and I'm married. And me and Edward talked about this, and our marriage has been over well over a decade, almost two decades now, so he knows a lot of this. But I remember just telling him… like, we were in marriage counseling. And at this point I had been seeing women pretty consistently like throughout my whole marriage. It was like living a lie. I was in the military, so at the time most of my friends were gay. I would only go to lesbian events. I was going to all the Pride festivals. I'm from California, so all up and down the coast going to Pride. And it was like I was a whole, like a totally different person.

And then I would go home at night.

CD: Yeah.

AC: And I would be with my husband and my kids. So we went to marriage counseling one day, and he had an inkling, but he…I'm sure he knew, but he didn't have a confirmation, you know? And I will never forget, we were in marriage counseling and the therapist had asked him “What does Amber need to do for this marriage to work?” and he said like everything anti-gay.

He was like, “I don't want her hanging out with her gay friends anymore. I don't want her going to these gay clubs anymore. I don't want her going to these Pride festivals anymore.” And literally, I felt like he punched me in my chest. Like I couldn't breathe. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, Oh my gosh, everything he's saying is like… it's me. Like, I just can't be me. It's pretty much what he was saying. And like I said, because sometimes he watches my [interviews], he was a great husband and he’s a great father, but I just couldn't be who he wanted me to be.

And like my mind was [out already].

CD: Right, he could be as great as he wanted to be, but you still wouldn’t be happy.

AC: Yes, and so when he set this up, I just remember saying, “I can't do it. I can't. I can't do that.” And then we just got up and left. And that was pretty much the end of my marriage. Because I'm like, that's who I am. And these are the things that make me happy. And you’re telling me I can't do these things… literally, I almost felt like I was dying inside.

Like, he was basically saying “Amber cannot be Amber.” And I'm like, That cannot happen. And so once we decided that we were not going to be together anymore, and 90% of that reason was because I identified as a lesbian, I ended up meeting a woman and I brought her home to my family. And [I] was just kind of like, “This is who I'm with. I'm not with Edward anymore. If she's not welcome here, I'm not welcome here.” And my mom and dad were kind of like, “The nerve of you to even say that to us. [Of course] we're going to accept.”

CD: Oh!

 AC: Yeah, no, my parents are very open. They get mad [because] I call them hippies.

CD: You call them what?

AC: I call them hippies.

CD: Oh, yeah, I thought it was going to go in a different direction for sure.

AC: Oh no, no, no, no. Yeah, mine was good. Yeah, I call them hippies. They're like, “Do you know what a hippie is? We're not hippies.” But they totally are. Like, their energy, their demeanor, their vibe, everything.  To me, my parents are hippies. And so pretty much they were saying, “If this is what you want to do, we're going to support you, and we love you, and we love whoever you love.”

[But also] that [they were] not going to not talk to Edward, or be there for him, too. And I was like that's fine.

CD: So how long after marriage counseling was this party, or this like family event where you brought your [new partner]?

AC: It was pretty immediate because like I said, I pretty much was seeing women the entire time.

CD: Yeah, okay.

AC: Yeah, so it was just kind of like one woman in particular who made me realize that I can actually have a life with a woman, and marry a woman, and have kids with a woman, and all this stuff.

[And to] actually have a certain level of love, because remember too, for a long time I didn't have friends in the community. It was a very, very straight lifestyle and I just kind of had to really put myself out there. As an adult it's kind of hard making friends, even with your girlfriend. It’s kind of like, “Hi, you want to be friends!”

CD: Yeah, right, it's very difficult to make friends as an adult, but one of the things I want to ask you about is how you set about making friends in the community. Because it is weird, especially if you're coming out as, you know, not a teenager or something, or you're not in school where it's sort of organic to make friends. You’re like walking up to people like, “I like, “Do you want to play?” [both laughing]

AC: Like, what is going on! Yeah, it's so awkward. Even now, because I'm still fairly new to the DMV, I only talk to and hang out with like three or four people. And it's just so weird to try to make friends. And [back then, I feel like it looked like] I’m living as a straight woman, and I have my kids, [who] I absolutely love and adore, but I know [it looks like I’m straight from] the outside, but this is what I feel like in the inside, and I really want to be over here with the cool kids pretty much, you know? And so I didn't really have an outlet, but when I would finally like go to lesbian events and start meeting people, I was very honest about what I had going on at home, and why I wasn't making the moves that I was making.

Not so much out of fear, but I think more so as being “in loyal” with someone. Like you know, you're in love with someone, but you're “in loyal” with someone where you feel a sense of loyalty. Like, I can't leave. This is my family, and I'm the mom and you know, he's a good dad and I can’t do that.

 But it's just at that time, I just really had to choose me. And so honestly, after marriage counseling it was pretty much immediate where I was fully just open. It was like I just want to be with a woman, and it's pretty much been like that ever since. And luckily for me, I know there's a lot of people out there in our community who don't have the greatest coming out stories, but my family was very supportive.

My mom was very supportive, which is I felt like was so important and really helped me step into my own comfort zone because I was a little uncomfortable being out so open in the public. But with my ex-husband, that was harder. He didn't talk to me for five years.

CD: I wanted to ask you about that, like what your relationship was like at that point while you were still kind of like settling into this identity you were finally able to embrace [your sexuality] and live openly. And also how your kids took it.

AC: Yeah, well, Edward, my ex-husband, we're friends now and we talk, but in five years, we've probably said like 10 sentences to each other. It was very like, Hey, you're going to meet me halfway for the kids. You want the baby's car seat? Because when I decided to leave, we just had our second baby. I don't even think my daughter, maybe my daughter was one year old when I finally [left]. So it was like, You wanna take both kids this weekend? You have the car seat? It was just like very…

CD: Transactional.

AC: Yeah, and even then, like I said, I was with him since we were 13 years old. So I'm really close to his family. I'm still really close to his family. And so like we would still throw the baby's birthday parties together. And when I would go back home to San Francisco, I would go stay at his mom's house and we would be in the same space like, Oh, well, give this to your dad or Go get this to your mom. But we wouldn't talk. It was just kind of like we were just in the same space together.

CD: Around this time, when you reflect on your [relationship you had since you were 13 years old], like that's a very long relationship. I'm wondering, do you think, and this is hypothetical, right…but that you might have known earlier or been able to embrace your sexuality openly if you hadn't been in this relationship with someone you really loved from like this really early developmental age?

AC: I think so. Yeah. I think if the conversation was a little different, like with my friends and my mom and everyone not pushing like, Oh, that's a phase or that's weird. You know, I probably knew for a long time because I even remember being like 12 and we had this this thing called Cal Skate, like you know the indoor roller rink?

CD: Okay.

AC: And they had a couple’s skate, and I was with my cousins. There was like five of us and a group of my friends, and there was a tomboy there. I guess now knowing the [correct word] she was a “stud”. And she asked me to skate… no! I asked her if she wanted to skate with me.

And my cousins and everybody was like, “That's a girl.” Like, “What are you doing?” I'm like, “Oh…” and I acted like I didn't know. I'm like, “What? Really?” [both laughing]

CD:  Yeah, right.

AC: I was just like, “Oh, well, I mean, I already asked her if she wanted to skate, so I'm not going to not skate.” But I knew already. I knew. And we did the couple skate. And I was 12, and I was so happy. And you know, back then, I didn't have no cell phone or no beeper. It was just like outside of Cal Skate, like talking for a minute. And then her parents picked her up, and my parents picked me up, and we just went our separate ways. But I was so happy about that.

CD: Forever changed.

AC: Yeah. And it's just like, I was 12 years old. And so, it's kind of like, I guess I needed to reassure myself that it was going to be okay. And that I didn't need permission to live life authentically.

And, as well, making sure that I put myself first, because I feel like becoming a young mom has kind of taught me to put myself second. And now I have to constantly relearn to put myself first, and that me putting myself first makes me a better person all around with everybody else. And so I definitely think that if Edward wasn't in the picture, I probably would have been seeing women well before then. But it's okay, because I wouldn't have my kids. And Edward is a great, a great father, and I wouldn't have changed a thing.

CD: Right, right. And so you came out a few times.

AC: Yes.

CD: Nobody believed you, and then you finally just made everyone get on the same page with you, which was super courageous on your part to reclaim your life because you deserve to be happy. And so now I'm kind of wondering like, moving into Okay, I can be open, I don't have to worry about who's gonna see me at this event, or out on dates, or what have you…so how did that change how you dated? And then I'm also going to ask you about how dating women with kids has been for you, as well.

AC: Um, so once I was out and Edward knew, I feel like my biggest thing was Edward because I never wanted to hurt him. So once he knew, I felt free. And so I was just open because I was already going to events and doing stuff. So I didn't have too much of a transition there, being out in public and open like that.

But I did with my son, who's going to be 14 soon, and my daughter doesn't have any memory… they don't. I'm working on my pronouns because actually my child has came out as trans. So even as a lesbian woman, I'm still trying.

CD: Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, it's like you've known her for, well, you've known them for 14 years.

AC: Yeah, so I'm sorry, I'm catching myself. And they also watch when I do interviews, too. So, sorry, AJ! Mommy's trying!

So, AJ has no memory of me and their father being together, but my son does, our son does. And so I always had to explain to him, I would never-- and even now that both of them are older-- when my son's grown, I never want them to be with someone because they have kids or feel obligated [to be with that person]. If they don't feel right within their spirit, they need to make moves.

And I know some people are like, Oh, the sanctity of marriage! And You have to stick it through! Like, no, life is very, very short. If it doesn't feel good, and the puzzle doesn't fit, you need to go, because at the end of the day, people are gonna do what makes them happy. So, you have to do what makes you happy. Now you can try to do it as gently as possible, because we don't set out to hurt people, but I teach them to live their authentic selves. And that's kind of what I'm doing now with some of the things that I’ve expressed to you offline.

But I remember one day my son came home, he was in junior high. And girl, let me tell you, I was like a little more quiet. So, because I never had like a sit down talk with the kids. It was kind of like one day I just had a girlfriend there around them, you know. And he came home one day and he's like, he was in junior high, he's like, “I know what you are.” And I'm like, “What are you talking about?” It was like in sixth grade. And I'm like, “What do you mean?” He's like, “I know what you are.” And I'm like, “Well, what am I?” And he's like, “You're a lesbian.” And I don't know why, but it was like, [imitating dramatic music]duh, duh, duhhh! And I was like, “Who told you that?” I just wanted them to see me as mom. Like, why are you thinking about any of those other things? You know? And I'm like, “Who told you that? And he's like, “Me and my friends are talking about it.” [So] they were talking about lesbians and he realized My mom's a lesbian. He put it together.

CD: That’s impressive for 6th grade boys'. I mean kudos to him.

AC: Yeah! And he's like, “But I didn't I didn't tell anybody.” He's like, “But I just know.” And so he was having this conversation and he was just like, What, wait! Wait a minute! and he came home and he just told me. He's like, “I didn't tell anybody.” And I'm like, “Well, it's not really anybody's business.” I was like, “I don't feel like you should tell people because it's not their business, but not because I'm ashamed. But I will tell you that not a lot of people like that. Mommy is a lesbian. They don't like people of same sex who are together. And, and it's sad because we're so nice people. But what the reason why I wouldn't want you to tell a lot of people is because I don't want their friends, their family to treat you differently, because some people will.”

 So I had to have that conversation with him. He's like, “I'm not going to tell. I'm not going to tell anybody, mom, it's okay.” And I was just like, “But if you want to tell a couple of friends, because you want to talk about it,” I said, “that's fine, too. But mommy just wants you to know that not all parents are like me. And some of them might not like you anymore if they find out about that.” And I was like, “But that's okay, too. We don't need those types of people.”

So I had to have that conversation with him when he came home and was like, I know what you are. I know what you are. I'm going to ask him if he remembers that because my son's 20 now. Like, “Do you remember when you came home and you were like, ‘I know what you are. You're a lesbian!’”

CD: Is that still your stance? Like it's no one's business. That kind of thing?

AC: Yeah. With the kids. So with my wife, we had a daughter together, too. So we have a 10 year old, but she ended up keeping [our daughter].

CD: Let's clarify the timeline for people listening, because I know you had a wife, but we only know about Edward so far.

AC: Yes. So I ended up marrying a woman.

CD: Okay.

AC: Yes, that I was with for… we've been together for 12 years, and we have a 10 year old together. So I had two children with Edward, my ex-husband, and then I have one, with Tia, which is my 10 year old. We had my 10 year old daughter, Jaylen, but [Tia] carried her. And so with the two younger kids-- this is for the two younger ones-- all they know is me this way. All they know is like, two moms, women, you know, that I'm a lesbian. They don't know me in any other way. And they're 14 and 10.

And so something I explained to them [is] that all families are different, all the way down from a mom and a dad, to two moms, two dads, a step mom, a dad, and another mom…like all the dynamics. And some grandparents. So I'm like, every family is special, but you don't have to explain your family to everyone.

Because one of my fears, because you know, we see in social media how people talk about same-sex couples and their families, and I never want my kids to be mistreated or not invited to sit at certain tables because of me and my choices. But then at the same time it's like I'm on the fence because I'm just like, Okay, well you don't need to sit at those tables with people like that, you know. But I let my kids decide if they want to tell people. And I tell them I'm not gonna go and be like, “Hi, I'm Jaylen’s or AJ's mom, and I'm gay!” Like, I don't do that. I just introduce myself. And when we're having sleepovers or parties, either I show up or my wife shows up, we introduce ourselves, if they have questions about safety or whatever… but I never go into my relationship.

CD: Well, and no one else does, right?

AC: Yeah, but it's just kind of like, should we tell them that we're the gay couple? Like [imitating a straight person], “Just so you know, I have a husband at home who's a cis male and you're talking to hetero people.”

CD: Yeah, right.

AC: But I get that way sometimes. Should we let them know that we're gay, [and I just] deal with [whatever comes] after? Because my daughters have had, my children have had a couple of sleepovers and I always wonder was the kid going to go home and be like, “Oh, AJ has two moms,” and then I have to deal with like, “Oh, well, we wouldn't have let my kid go over there if we knew you were gay.”

But luckily enough, my kids have been really good about picking really good kids that are attached to good parents or non-judgmental parents. And so, um, that hasn't happened yet, but that has been a concern for me being a lesbian parent.

And as far as dating with kids, like I said, I was in the Marine Corps, and so I met my wife in the Marine Corps. And, you know, she knew I had kids, but we were friends for a couple years. And she definitely was one of the people who would talk like I don't want to date any one with kids. And I hear all the time like on the social media pages. I don't say anything. I just look, but a lot of people are against dating women with kids.

CD: Oh, you mean like dating apps when they're like, “No kids”?

AC: Not necessarily dating apps, but just on like a lot of like the lesbian pages and stuff on Facebook and Instagram, or wherever a lot of women post. They don't want to date someone with kids.

CD: Oh, okay.

AC: And so I'm just thinking, Well, I'm a pretty good catch. So, you're missing out, but whatever. But so I was like, I'm not gonna say it was a hindrance, because God definitely put the people in my life meant to be in my life. But I did lose-- I'm not gonna say… I'm gonna change my words. I did have women not date me or want to pursue me because I had my children. And I'm like that's fine. But I'm [also] like, they have [another] parent, and we both have really good careers. I just need you to acknowledge them and respect them as human beings. I don't really need you to do anything else.

And like I said, some women were okay with it, some were not. And that's their choice. That's fine. But I don't feel like it's really hindered me from doing anything, having them in tow with me.

CD: Okay, and so you and Edward ended things. Then you were married to Tia for...?

AC: Almost five years. Five years and then divorced.

CD: Now you're single? You're unmarried right now?

AC: We're separated, yeah. We're separated.

CD: OK. And that's where we are. That's the timeline. OK. Co-parenting, yeah.

AC: So co-parenting is definitely different with co-parenting with a woman, another mom.

CD: Is it? I'm curious as to how.

AC: And it's a little different with co-parenting with a dad.

CD: Okay.

AC: It's different.

CD: How?

AC: Like Edward is very… like, Tia was also a really good provider, but it's like the things I don't…I think it just goes back to our genetic makeup, like the things that women care about versus what men don't care about.

CD: Yeah.

AC: Or like our nurturing side. So, with Edward, it's very much like [I’ll say], “Hey, Isaac or AJ have this going on.” [And Edward will say,] “Okay. Well, tell me where I need to be and tell me what I need to do. How much money do you need? Okay, great. Got it. See you then.”

And then versus, like with Tia, it's just like, “Hey, they need to go to the orthodontist. Are you going to be able to do it? Cause you know, the back of their teeth was like this and that,” and like, “What's going to happen? I wonder how they're going to look after this. I wonder how they're going to feel. Oh, I'm so anxious…” Like, it's just different.

CD: That's how Tia communicated?

AC: Yeah, like it's just different I guess because we're both women. Like, nurturing and more detail-oriented with what's going on with the kid, versus with Edward [where] it's like very direct.

CD: Right. Yeah.

AC: Very direct. And in both situations, the kids are well taken care of and have hands-on parents, but it's just different for me to juggle. And it sounds really bad to be like, “Oh, I have a baby daddy and a baby mama.” But I do! [laughing]

CD: Yeah, you do. [laughing]

AC: Yeah, that is itchy for sure. But I mean. Parenting is really different. And also too, what I struggled with was in my first marriage, I'm the mom and he's the dad and we have our gender roles. But then with my wife, we're both the moms. Like, our daughter calls us both mom. Like, if she's not talking to one of us, she'll just be like, “Oh, the other mom,” or, “I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to this mom.” She lets us know who she's talking to.

CD: I think that part of the lesbian experience is always really weird for people to think about because we're so socialized. There's a certain picture of how we're supposed to live our lives. I think that you just illustrated really beautifully how kind of beautiful, but chaotic, but it all works out that it can be, right? Like it all came together and it sounds like you picked two very great parents for your kids.

AC: I did! That was my thing. Like, you know, they're both really good. And I feel like one thing my mom used to always say to me was, “When I leave this world…” -- hopefully no time soon, love my mother – “I just want to know you guys are okay. And you guys are taken care of.” And, and my mom says this to us as grownups. And I'm like, “Mom, we're good.”

And she's like, make sure that you check on your brother, you check on your sister and this and that, cause I don't want to worry. And I definitely feel like with my kids' parents, in my absence and like right now, none of the kids are with me on the East Coast -- my son's in Hawaii, both of my younger two are in California now, so I'm here alone now-- um, they're taken care of. That's not something that I ever worry about.

CD: Right, that's good.

AC: Yeah, it's just really peace of mind and that's priceless because I know that they're being taken care of, and because I do see a lot of people in their co-parenting, or not co-parenting, situation.

CD: Yeah.

AC: Or single parent,  and in a few of the other interviews I did I'm like me and Edward were not together, but by no means was I ever a single mom. I don't ever claim that and the same thing [with my ex-wife]. I'm over [on this coast], but if she needs something or wants something, and when she has Jalen or when I have Jalen, I never claim that I take care of my kids on my own. Because I don't, because [their other parents are] very, very, very involved and active with the kids.

CD: That's awesome. So I kind of want to like take a step back so we've talked about your coming out, we've talked about your family life and how those two things interact.

I'm curious about the military part of your story because I think there are a lot of queer women in the military, and I think we all know that the military has not always been hospitable to queer people for a while, and and so I'm interested in what piece that plays in your coming out story. If it played a role at all. And not having been in the military myself, can you talk to me about what that might have looked like for you?

AC: So definitely, for a long time, you know, Don't Ask, Don't Tell was enacted. And so what that is for the people who don't know is, you pretty much were not allowed to be gay in the military. So they were not allowed to ask you if you were gay, and you were not allowed to tell people that you were. And so that's why it was like don't ask, don't tell. I can't ask you and you can't tell me or you're going to basically be separated from the military. So there is thousands of people that were discharged from the military just for simply being in same-sex relationships.

Now, during my relationship with my wife, when we got together, Don't Ask, Don't Tell was still enacted. And so I was the “best friend” for a long time in the military. As her partner, I was the “best friend” who just happened to be with her at all her events and travel with her.

CD: Do you think people knew?

AC: There was some people that knew, because… it was like the sweetest thing because I'm sure one [person], I think she was a master sergeant, at one of our going-aways, [Tia and I were] getting stationed in New York, and the master sergeant gave a speech to Tia about how great of a Marine she was.

And then she started talking to me and she was just like, I know how much you mean to her and that you're her support. And I was just like, Oh my gosh, like no one talks to me. Cause I'm just the “friend” that's at the event. And she like said this whole speech to me about being Tia's support system. And basically I felt like she was saying like, Girl, I know damn well you are not her roommate.

That's how I felt. And I was like, I like got emotional because I felt like that was the first time I was really like acknowledged, even as a friend, you know. Because I don't know if I said it, but me and Edward were both in the Marine Corps. And so with my [ex-wife], that's how [we] met.

And so being dual military and then getting out and being a military spouse is hard. Like you make a lot of sacrifices and a lot of adjustments. And that's also why I was planted here in the DMV was because Tia is still active duty, but I decided to stay behind. And that's why I don't really know a lot of people here since I'm not from here. And so I haven't been here that long. And so for a long time, I was just her “best friend”.

And even to the point, like when we had our daughter, she, I wasn't put on the birth certificate and she was, according to the military, a single mom. But she wasn't, I've been there since conception. But I wasn't allowed to be on the birth certificate. I wasn't allowed to a lot of things because you're not supposed to be gay. And so that was something big. And even after Don't Ask Don't Tell was lifted, all of our friends were calling like, Are you guys going to get married now? Are you guys going to do this and that?

But we still waited several years, several years after. But even then, I know for Tia and some other people, I think being told [for so long] that you're not allowed to be out and open, [plus] they weren't really having protections against mistreatment of LGBT people. And so a lot of us, including Tia, still didn't fully come out. Like even after it was open, I still was the “best friend”. Or a lot of our gay friends would just show up to events by themselves. So people would always think they were single, but they weren't, they had partners, but they didn't feel comfortable bringing them out or letting people know they were gay.

I feel like the males had the biggest issues more than the females.

CD: Okay.

AC: But for a long time, that was still a thing. And even, um, what happened? I'll never forget,  one of Tia's best friends, Vanessa, in New York. We were at her house and we were talking and she was just like, “So what? So are you and Amber a couple or what?” And you know, , I said we were friends. And so then it got super awkward and uncomfortable. And Vanessa's in the military, too. And so she was like, “What did I say?” It got weird.

CD: Is this after Don't Ask, Don't Tell?

AC: Yeah, but because Tia still wasn't putting herself out there, you know, just because people [were doing that]. There [was] still stigma.

CD: Yeah.

AC: Even outside the military, you know?

CD: Sure.

AC: And so I remember she asked, “What did I say? What did I ask?”

And then Tia was just like, “Yeah, we're together. We've actually been together for five years.” And she's like, “Oh, okay.” But it's not broadcasted, you know? I feel like that's because the military had just instilled a certain level of fear that you just couldn't be yourself. And so even now it's been, I don't remember the exact year that it was lifted, but like I said, I feel like most women are more open being out, but we still came across a lot of gay men where it's like, you know that they're gay. But they don't talk about it. They don't show up with anybody or anything. And it's just like that part of their life doesn't exist. And I think that's because they fear that they're going to be treated differently.

CD: Sure.

AC: So I think it's interesting because even though the laws kind of shifted away from enabling people to be outright prejudiced or biased against LGBT people, you were still limited by the sort of culture of the military in terms of how much you could actually do. So when people were allowed to start getting married in some states, gay and lesbian people were allowed to get married in certain states, and when Don't Ask Don't Tell was knocked down, you still had to essentially be closeted.

CD: Yes. Yeah, I think that that's not a thing that I have personally ever considered before. That like having those freedoms did not mean like that there were still people who, even though those freedoms were granted, could not actually partake.

AC: Yeah.

CD: Okay. And how do you feel about your military experience? Was it was good?

AC: I would do it again for sure. The issues that I had with the military, they didn't stem from being a lesbian or coming out or anything like that.

I was sexually assaulted and harassed while I was in the Marine Corps. And so that kind of put a stain on my service. But it wasn't because I was a lesbian. But at the same time, I spent most of my service living as a heterosexual woman, dual military with my husband.

Yeah, and so when I got out, I think when I officially came out, I was in the military less than a year, and then I was out. And because I was married and I was dating women, it was never like it had to be a secret anyways. It wasn't a secret because of the military, it was a secret just because I was married. And so, yeah. I hope that answers the question.

CD: No, it did answer the question. I just kind of have always been interested. I think, honestly, some of this is pulling from personal interest because I grew up in a military area in Virginia Beach, which is right outside of a big naval base in Norfolk. I was one of the few families growing up who didn't have an active military parent.

So I was always kind of curious, I guess, as I got older and became aware of my own identity, and then started to realize on dating apps, how many women who are coming up on these apps were in the military. Or like, stationed at the base near here, near DC. It just kind of all kind of came together as one big question, like what is that like? What is that experience like being both lesbian and in the military?

And I think you're led to believe that it's a much more hospitable place, like the military is a more hospitable place because of Supreme Court decisions about our freedom as a whole. And then I think what you've just illustrated is that culturally, there's still a lot of work to be done and still quite a bit of stigma around being out in the military. So I was just interested in your take on that.

AC: Yeah.

CD: So now I would just like to know what sort of advice you have for anyone who is coming out, or thinking about coming out, or grappling with their identity. And you can answer that however you'd like.

AC: I would say that for me, I understand my parents are so loving and supportive. I never was scared to come out to them, but I know that's not the reality for a lot of people.

And so I would say definitely finding support. It might, even though we want it to come from our family members or our closest friends or family, that might not always be the case. But there are people out there that will love you and support you as your true self.

CD: Yeah.

AC: Find those people, gravitate to those people, allow those people in. And the longer that you don't live authentically, it's just a waste of your time and your happiness. And we don't have a lot of time. And I would say that it's scary, but it's so worth it. It's worth it being able to wake up and know that you're living a life that's true to yourself. And even now, I'm getting slapped with reality, as I mentioned before.

My child, my middle child, has recently come out as trans. I was thinking it was trans non-binary, but I'm still thinking they’re trans non-binary and might just go over to traditional transgender. But they came out to me as a lesbian when they were 12 and now they're 13, almost 14, and they're telling me that they're trans. And, and I struggle with it a little bit, and this is even [with] me being in the community, I struggle. But then at the same time, I feel so proud that -- oh, I'm getting emotional!

I feel so proud that here's this 13-year-old kid that's just kind of like, Yo, this is who I am and this is who I'm going to be. And like, you’re going to like it or you're not. But it's just like with my mom's support, I felt like nobody else mattered because I'm like, I have my mother's support. Like I don't need permission from anybody else. And so I try to be that way with my kids. Like all they know when they look back on mom is that I supported them and I love them through everything. Blue hair, green hair, shaved head, gay, not gay. You don't want to go to college and just want to be a boxer in Hawaii. Okay, as long as you're not-

CD: Is that what your son is doing?

AC: Yes!

CD: That's awesome.

AC: Yeah, he's playing for MMA in Hawaii. And he lives on the island and just trains all day. And he's happy. So I'm like, OK, do your thing.

So to have AJ come out like this, I just like to think that they feel that they're able to do that because they know that I support them and that I love them. Because even then, I never truly felt like it was a true coming out with my mom. I felt like it was a coming out with Edward, but I never felt like it was a true coming out with my mom. It was just kind of like, Mom, I think this. And the same thing with AJ. We were having a conversation, because I don't know if you remember, last year Target came out with this whole rainbow line and everybody was going crazy and like, Oh, they're supporting gays or whatever.

CD: The gay agenda.

AC: Right. And I was just like, That's so cute! And my AJ was [talking about their friends wanting items in the collection.] And I'm like, you guys know what the rainbow is? And AJ [explained it all to me.] And I was like, “Oh, do any of your friends identify as gay or lesbian or queer?” And they were just like, “Actually all my friends are.”

And I feel like some parents know like if their kids are gay or whatever, you know. I have some thoughts about my youngest, but me and Tia were gonna wait it out a little bit. But [with] AJ I never [thought they were.] You know how they say, Oh, the gaydar… I never caught that from that [AJ].

CD: Okay

AC:  And so for them to tell me… We were sitting down having dinner and they were just like, “I know I'm pansexual.” Like I wasn't expecting it and then they came out like, just like pouring a glass of milk. I'm like, “What? Tell mommy about that a little bit. Like, what does that mean?” Because I wanted to know what they thought, you know?

CD: Yeah.

AC: And then I didn't want them to be embarrassed. So I'm just like, Educate me. Like, what is it? Cause I'm a little unclear.

CD: Right.

AC: So they told me and I was like, Alright, you're onto something. And then it kind of progressed to where they just like girls now and they're trans, but they're…they call it something. Like a “femboy” or something.

Cause AJ is very, I'll have to share some photos of AJ. AJ is very, very creative with cosplay. Very, very creative, very, very creative. And will be really feminine. But when they're not in character they wanna feed their masculine energy. But they just live so authentically. And if I can put a little bit of their courage and bravery into everyone who's scared to come out, I just would just sprinkle it all over because that child is just like…

CD: Courageous.

AC: Yeah! Like I'm here. I don't even have to tell people what's going on with AJ because AJ is just like, Did you see my social media account? Oh, do you need me to tell you something? AJ's like…

CD: You know the deal.

AC:  Yeah.

CD: You already know.

AC: Yeah! It's none of this…like with me, how I was like I think this, I think that or I might be this or What do you think, or Courtney, what's your take on this?  Like you know, testing the water a little bit.  No, [AJ’s] like You know what? I read this, and that's how I identify. So here on out you will say this, this, and that.

CD: This new generation is fearless in a lot of ways.

AC: Yes.

CD: But I do feel like it's a testament to you that all of your kids are living freely and authentically. And your whole story is a testament to how, like especially in Black families, where I think we talk about intergenerational trauma, you know, like all these sort of negative things that get passed down. But your “hippie” mom who doesn't embrace “hippie”, she taught you self-love. She taught you that it's important to put you first and to be happy, and  that she would support you no matter what. And your father, as well.

And then you get on with your kids and they're going to be all right because because they have you as a mom. And I just think it's so awesome.

AC: Yeah. That's the best thing that I would say for the advice, is just to be yourself, because everyone else is taken, and at the end of the day, no one's going to live your life like you. No one's gonna put you first like you. And it might not be the people that you think should be there for you, or you thought would be there for you, but there are people out there that will embrace you 110% and I'm one of them.

So if anyone's listening and they need help, they can hit me up.

CD: Awesome. Do you want to tell people where they can find you?

AC: So my Instagram is @classy_ambina. You can post my [handle], and my email as well. Also, I'm a mental health therapist, so I have a little bit of knowledge about that.