Season 1, Episode 6: Lee L.

CD: Welcome, everyone, to Outspoken Noire. This is a podcast about lesbian coming out stories, and I am talking today with a friend of mine, Lee. You wanna say hi, Lee?

LLP: Oh, this is where I say hi. Hi! Hey, everybody, this is Lee Levingston Perine, pronouns he/him. I'm a trans man of lesbian experience, but I guess we're gonna talk about that in a little bit.

CD: We will, we are going to unpack that a little bit. Or a lot, actually, because that is the point of this podcast.

So usually where I start, Lee, is by just getting to the story itself. Some people have longer actual coming out stories. Some people have multi-staged coming out stories. So let's start where you think is sort of like the crux of your coming out. Like when was the first time you had an awareness of your identity, I'm assuming initially as a lesbian?

LLP: Yeah, so I definitely have a few coming outs. I think my mom is hoping that there are no more coming outs, but I don't know yet.

We'll see what happens. But I think the first, you know, when I was like a little kid, I always felt “different”, even though I hate to say stuff like that, but there were things about myself that I was figuring out. And I have a twin sister, and I don't think she was having some of the same questions or issues or feelings that I was having.

It was when I was 15 years old, I think that's when I started to identify with language like, that I was a lesbian, but I didn't tell anybody. I was just like, Oh, I like girls, and I'm a lesbian. So I kind of kept it to myself. But when I was like 19 and I was a sophomore in college, that's when I came out to my mother. I remember we were on a road trip from, she picked me up from the airport in Little Rock and on the way back to Memphis, where she was living at the time, or still lives actually, I told her I was a lesbian.

And she was like, “Oh, so it's official,” because basically my Aunt Helen had told her back when I was 15. How did Aunt Helen know? Because I carried a wallet. That's what Aunt Helen said. That is such an old school Black thing. I would like to say though that my twin sister also carried a wallet, but nobody thought she was a lesbian, but apparently it was the way I carried my wallet.

CD: The way you carried it.

LLP: That Aunt Helen knew I was a lesbian. So I told my mom when I was 19, she wasn't surprised. And then at that point I was out in college, which was not easy because this was like the late 90s at a school in North Carolina. So definitely some issues with that. But pretty much, once I came out, I stayed out. And so [I was] out in college, I lived in Seattle, was in St. Louis, and then I got to DC in 2002.

And that's really where I came into my own and was part of a group called the Black Lesbian Mafia and found folks like myself. Oh yeah, we were dope. BLM before there was BLM, let me tell you. So shout out to my Black Lesbian Mafia family who just really nurtured me, supported me, and held me and just showed me what community and family could look like, and chosen family could look like.

Let's see, so many things. I ended up getting married, and it was like-

CD: Okay, let's slow down. [laughing]

LLP: I'm still kind of fast forwarding that, but it was like, it was towards the end of my marriage that I started to explore gender and gender identity. And like, kind of revisiting some of those feelings I had as a child. And because of my time in DC, that's when I realized that there was language for what it was.

And that's when I realized that, Oh, I'm trans. Because I didn't know that language in my teens. I didn't know that language even in my 20s. It was in my 30s that I was just like, Oh, this could be me. And it's during that time that I started to, you know, go down the YouTube rabbit hole and then realize that I was a trans person and started to identify as a.. well, more so genderqueer at that point.

And I think I had to come out again at…shit, 35, maybe 36? So it was like 2015, I came out as trans. And so that was my second coming out. So I had to tell my mom again that there was something she needed to know. And she was like, Okay. And so that's kind of where I am now. So I've been on this journey. I mean, I've always been on this journey, but this stage of my journey, identifying as a trans man of lesbian experience for about five years now.

And I definitely say trans man of lesbian experience because, you know, it was lesbian community, lesbian communities that have helped shape and make me the person that I am today. And so really want to like honor and embrace those communities because they're core to who I am.

CD: Yeah, that was going to be my next question, actually, was for you to explain that because when we first got on this call and I asked how do you describe yourself that is what you told me: “I consider myself a trans man of lesbian experience.”

And one thing I really like about that is that with this project, one thing that I really wanted to do was make sure that anyone who comes to OutSpoken Noire feels represented, and that the common thread is lesbian identity, but like the different forms that that can take, how it can occur on your journey, how you can grow from it. And so being trans, but like rooting that, or feeling that it was influenced by your lesbian experience I think is a powerful thing.

LLP: Yeah. So I do have to give a shout out to my friend Nora Rassman. Hey, Nora. Love you. She's the one who even introduced me to the term trans man of lesbian experience. I was like, oh, that's neat.

CD: Oh, you didn't coin it!

LLP: I didn't coin it, no. I've seen a friend of hers, I forget what it is that they do, they might be another organizer or activist. They introduced Nora to that term, and then Nora introduced me to that term, and so I have adopted that as a way to identify who I am, but I didn't coin the term, so.

CD: Right.

LLP: You wanna throw that out there. But wait, what was the question? Because you know I'm all over the place. What am I?

CD: Yeah, well, I haven't asked one yet. [both laughing]

LLP: Oh, okay. I don't want to mess up. No pressure.

CD: Yeah, no, no. It's fine. So, I guess I want to go back to your first coming out and focus on that for a second. So, you were how old? Did you say nine?

LLP: I was in childhood where I felt, you know, “different”. I still don't know the language to describe what those feelings were as a little kid. But yeah.

CD: Yeah. It's interesting. So you know I'm a twin as well. And it's weird to grow up as -- not weird, it's special. It's special to grow up with someone who mirrors you in a lot of ways. And so I'm interested in how noticing that Aunt Helen thinks the way you carry your wallet is different from how your sister carries her wallet [laughing].

Like, how does that make you feel as a young person, and how did those feelings that were engendered in you inform how you presented outwardly? Did you try and change yourself? How you carried yourself? Anything like that.

LLP: Yeah, so I'm a fraternal twin, so that's also what makes me different. My sister and I don't even look alike. We don't even look like cousins.

So I mean, like... Yeah. But you know, apparently we were in the womb together. So I'm very grateful for that. She's my favorite person in the whole wide world. Love you, Allison. And so in some ways, because we were so different anyway, and I think even though we're different, we don't even look alike, what happens sometimes with twins is like people try to make you alike, right? And force these like similarities on twins and be like, Well, you both must like this. I'm like, No, we're individuals.

So in some ways I'm actually kind of grateful that my Aunt Helen, even back then, was distinguishing us as individuals and saw that at that point. So my given name is Alisa, right? And so [she saw]that Alisa is different than Allison. And even though they both may carry wallets, that's probably the most they have in common. And the way that Alisa carries her wallet means something else. And there's something about at that time, about her niece that needed to be expressed, right?

And so this idea, and like, also I think preparing my mother because she knew that, again, this is like the 90s in the Midwest. So beginning to prepare my mom for what could potentially happen to me because it's like, this is not going to be, you know, like most parents, they just feel like this is not going to be an easy life. And so it was more like a fear of-- it wasn't religious. [More] like, I think this is wrong and a sin or things like that.

It's just more like issues of safety. And is my kid gonna be okay? And, oh Lord, they're already Black. So why do they wanna keep like piling things on their plate to make their lives harder? And so so I think for me, I'm  thankful that Aunt Helen saw me differently than my sister and just read me differently, and saw that this kid was gonna have a very different journey than their siblings and kind of prepared mom for that.

CD: So was your sister a support for you? I notice a lot of times when people are talking about their coming out stories, the siblings are like, It's okay, don't worry, I got your back. And then the parents are like, What's happening? So I mean, was your sister a source of support for you?

LLP: Definitely. So I told my mom when I was 19, I think I told my sister and some friends when we were like 17. And so my sister supports everything that I do. And so she's like, “I love you, I got your back. You don't need to worry about anything.” My brother is the same way. He's a character, don't get me wrong. But he's just like, “I love you, I got you. None of this matters.”

And even when I came out as trans, I think that may have been a harder adjustment. My sister was fine. I mean, it may have been a harder adjustment for my brother, but then it was just like, Oh, that's like my little brother. And wanted to be supportive of me on this journey and helping me figure out things around masculinity.

So yeah, my siblings, they're awesome. Like super, super dope. And even when it comes to my mom, like I know at times this has been challenging for her, both coming outs, but she rocks with me. She loves me unconditionally. And she was willing to do the work and educate herself. And we had some tough conversations. And sometimes I think we probably hurt each other's feelings. But at least we were willing to do the work and we have a very healthy and strong relationship.

And I talk to her every day. And I talk to her about my experiences as a Black person, as a trans man, as everything. And so, yeah.

CD: Yeah. Yeah. And so, as you were growing up, say in your teen years or into college, do you feel that you were presenting in a way where anyone looking at you would have identified you as queer or gay, or do you feel that you were sort of presenting in a way that was more aligned with conventional ideas of femininity?

LLP: I think I've always, in all periods of my life, there's definitely been a softness to me. And so I would say in my teenage years and in my 20s and stuff it was definitely like that “soft butch” kind of lesbian. You know, I wore a polo, not sure how well I wore it, and like cargo pants and like all those kind of things, so I think I looked like a lesbian. Didn't rock as much flannel as some people. Oh yeah, I looked like a lesbian, I think.

CD: Okay.

LLP: I think it was pretty obvious.

CD: Yeah. Did that shape your interactions with people or do you feel like it was mostly inconsequential?

LLP: I think it was inconsequential. Yeah, I think people were like, Oh, there's this soft lesbian, and it didn't…I don't really feel like it impacted me too much or how people treated me. But I also lived in places where I didn't always have to like fear for my safety. So I've always lived in major cities where there have been like active, outspoken queer communities. And so I was one of many, I wasn't the only. And even in college, even if people felt a certain way about me, I never worried about violence or anything like that.

CD: So in college, I know-- and if you don't want to talk about this, that’s fine-- but I know you pledged a certain Greek organization that is…

LLP:  Not in college. I did it later on after college.

CD: After college. Okay, so I'm interested in what drew you to… not that sorority specifically, but a sorority, which is such a sort of conventionally feminine space, and literally is defined by its woman-ness. I guess what I'm thinking about is if there was anything in you at that point where you were kind of already aware of a part of your identity that was not tapped yet, as you joined this organization that's like a hyper-feminine, woman-centered space.

And as a lesbian, being in a woman-centered organization is not noteworthy, but as someone who is trans and has not come to that yet.

LLP: Yeah.

CD: You know, it makes it a little more complicated, the sort of identity politics of being in that space.

LLP:  Yeah, well, a couple of things. And a lot of people know about me. So when I was 17 in senior high school, I was actually a debutante, right? And I was first runner up.

And so I had worn-

CD: Of course you were! [laughing]

LLP: [laughing]You know, I can curtsy…well, not now, I’m in my 40s, but I had that whole experience. And so I was familiar with that. And even at that point in my life, like, I don't even think it bothered me that much. And you know, it made my mom happy that I was able to be in this debutante ball. And so for me at that point in my life, I was just like, Oh, it's this thing, it's a little weird, but okay, I'll do it.

And I did it. And then when it was time to consider joining this organization that my mother is also a member of, at that point, I was still using language or considering myself to be gay or lesbian, or still identifying as a woman, so it didn't seem like that much of a reach. And honestly, I did it because it was very important to my mother, right?

CD: Sure, okay.

LLP: And look, I wanna be, in a lot of ways, I wanna be like both my parents, right? So there's a lot of things like my dad I want to be like, and a lot of things about my mom I wanted to emulate. And so my mom was in a sorority that had a very huge impact on her life and helped make her the person that she is. And so I was like, I want to be a member of this organization as well. Um, but even when I was joining, I wasn't sure how active I was going to be. So I'm not even quite sure if I expected it to have a huge, huge impact on my life in terms of what it meant to go to meetings or be a part of a sisterhood.

I didn't think that far ahead. It was Our mother is a member, my twin and I went through the process together, our cousin was there, as well. I mean, so it was just something for our family, for the women in our family as a way to be connected.

CD: Yeah, like joining that legacy. Okay.

LLP: Joining that legacy. Yeah, but it wasn't... I often don't give some of my decisions tons and tons of thought. You know what I mean? [laughing] It was just like, Okay, let's do it! Let's do it.

CD: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so can you talk about the period after college? Because I feel like a lot happens in college in terms of like identity formation, bonds made, that kind of thing. But I always think the part of life that people don't talk enough about is the part after college, like you're still in your early 20s, you have so much life ahead of you, but you still don't know a lot. You have to make these major decisions for yourself. And then all the while, like evolving in your own identity as a person. So what were those sort of like early 20s years like for you?

LLP: They were good times. So I graduated from college and I was like --I graduated early, but technically I graduated, 2000 is when I say I was still in college. And I had seen a show that hopefully folks know called The Real World. And they had just done this season in Seattle. And I was like, You know what? I wanna move there. I'd never been to Seattle.

I didn't know where it was on a map. But I got a job over the phone. They're like, “Be out here June 1.” So my best friend and I drove cross country and moved out to Seattle. But one of the things I did know about Seattle was it's progressive and there's like gay people.

CD: Right.

LLP: And so I was just like, Well, let me go out there for a little bit and see what it's like. And so my buddy Ace and I would go to clubs and have the time of our lives and meet all these new people.

And so we connected with like these young queers who were also right out of college and we were living our best lives and being like young and free and having a really awesome time. But Seattle was very far away from my family. So I ended up going back to St. Louis, which is where I was born and raised. But the thing about St. Louis is, St. Louis did-- although there are gay clubs and stuff, I didn't feel as free there. I was hanging out with more high school friends, and so they weren't necessarily gay.

And so it kind of felt like I was falling back into the high school person, not the person who was exploring their identity and was like out loud and proud. I wasn't closeted, but I wasn’t as immersed in queer culture. I wasn't even using the term “queer” at that point. And so it was then I realized like about a year was enough time in St. Louis, and I was actually supposed to move to Toronto. That didn't work out. And my brother was like, Oh, well just move to DC. And so I got here to DC when I was like 24 years old and DC in the early 2000s... like if folks weren't here, y'all just missed out. Y'all just don't know.

CD: [laughing] What happened?

LLP: Everything happened. It was like, because the city was still, if you ask me, it was a little sleepy. So it was affordable. It was still Black. It was very gay. And we had lots of options, right? So we had the Hung Jury. You had to go down this alley to get to this bar.

CD: Was it a gay bar?

LLP: It was a gay bar, yeah, it was a gay bar. And they had Black lesbian night, you know. We had The Phase, we had Apex, we had, what was that…Chaos in DuPont Circle, where there was a place that had like live entertainment, I think it was called Between Friends. We had the Delta Elite, which is something else. There's like other places that I don't know about, right? So I had all of these options. And I remember I met my friend Tiffany who introduced me to all these other Black lesbians and that's the first time in my life I had a crew of Black gay folks, right?

We were all nerds in high school and nerds in college and we found each other and we're just like, You're a weirdo too. And we connected. And so that's just really where I came into my own in terms of being a Black lesbian or a Black gay person. And we didn't necessarily even use the term chosen family back then, but these people, I think that was the first time I went to something that's now called Friendsgiving, and we would have game nights.

And so we did go to the club a lot and act a fool, but we also had meals together and explored the city together. And so yeah, there was like something really special about that time. So even though I'm from st Louis I tell everybody that I'm DC-made and that's because of that time in 2002 to 2005 where I really found Black queer community for the first time.

CD: So yeah, I'm glad you brought up community because I think that's such a critical part of having your own identity validated, but just on a very human level, you need friends. You need people who accept you for who you are and see you. So, for people listening, Lee is like the master of ceremonies for DC Black, queer life.

But was it more focused on Black lesbian spaces and entertainment early on? Like when did you first start throwing events, hosting events? And like what caused you to do that?

LLP: Yeah, so when I did my first event in DC, even though we had the Black Lesbian Mafia, I would still say the events that we went to were still more mixed and stuff. So I wasn't necessarily in specifically Black-only spaces. So we would be the crew of Black weirdos that would show up at like the white club kind of thing, kind of like dance together.

And there were Black-only spaces and we went to those as well, but we kind of went to a lot of white spaces, I would say. And then a few Black-only spaces, because even in some of those Black-only spaces, we sometimes felt like we didn't necessarily always fall into like “butch”, “femme” or “stud” or like those kinds of roles. And so, because we were like tweeners, sometimes we didn't always know how to be in those spaces. But I mean, people were fine with us there, but sometimes we felt a little out of place. So I just want to say that.

CD: So do you think that Black spaces can be more sort of like heteronormative?

LLP: Yeah, like, sort of centered on binary, sort of gendered. I mean, I'll speak to my experience, but yes, I remember I had one friend and they were like, “Well, what are you?” And I was like, “Well, what do you mean?” And I was like, you know, “I'm a lesbian, I'm gay… I don't know.”

They're like, “Well, I mean, are you like butch or femme?” Because my clothes, you know what I mean? It was a little in-between, it was a mix. And I was like, “Well, I don't know. I don't have to decide really.” And they were like, “Well, you have to pick one because you'll get more ass.” And I was like, Oh, right. And so it was just like But I don't want to have to do those things.

And I felt like sometimes when I went into white spaces, no one really asked me those questions because they kind of maybe, I don't want to say nobody, but they look confused too. But you know, they had like a mix.

CD: I mean, I agree with like that assessment, which it's interesting that you named it, and since that was a time [when it] sounds like there were just a lot of things happening that I completely missed-- I was like in high school at that point-- so I think to experience that part of DC when it was still really Black, and still kind of a sleepy town…but yeah I find that to still be true of Black spaces. Except for the events that you throw I feel are an exception where it's more, I'd say, queer rather than heteronormative spaces.

LLP: And I think that happened because my wife at the time, we left DC and we came back in 2012. And even when I talk about moving into Seattle right after college, Ace and I would go to this party at this place called the Timberline. It was a day party. I didn't know what day parties were. Or “key days”, whatever. And it was intergenerational.

And people just danced for hours. It was on Sunday. It was my favorite day of the week. Like I, that place, I got my life. Like, I wish I was at Studio 54. To me, this is what Studio 54 was. And there was this like old white man that would go around with a tambourine, off-beat, but it didn't matter. You know what I mean? Like, it was like the freest place. It was about the music. No one cared what you looked like. No one cared about what you were wearing, none of it. It was about dancing, right?

So Amanda and I got back from Seattle in 2012, and before we had been hosting a lot of events at our house, but we had moved into this small apartment, so we couldn't host, you know, gatherings for our friends. And I was like, Well, maybe it's time to try something for the public.

CD: And Amanda's your wife.

LLP: At the time, yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, all right, we're gonna have a tea party or tea dance, whatever. And so Amanda and I and Nora and Jessica, so it was the four of us, we teamed up and I named the party Freak Out. And it was this party the Sunday of DC Black Pride. And one of the reasons I threw that party is, you know, I'd gone to DC Black Pride events and I love DC Black Pride. I'd say it's my favorite weekend of the year.

But at the time, my ex-wife is white. So it was just like, I didn't always wanna bring her into certain spaces because it's Black Pride, right? And there's some spaces that need to be closed. But also during that week people would like jack up the covers for events. So it was normally a $10 party, it's now $25. And then there's dress codes. I don't do dress codes, they get on my damn nerves.

And so I was like, well, we're gonna do something a little different. Parties were at night. So I was like, I'll do a day party because it reminded me of the Timberline. And so we ended up doing a party on the Sunday. It was from like four to eight. We hired our wedding DJ. He played like everything from like cookout music to some of the current hits.

All of our friends showed up, and their friends, and we packed that place. And people just like danced and sweated, and it was free, and had the time of their lives. It was kind of like, Oh, we're onto something. And so we did that for a few years. Then the team disbanded, but I still wanted to keep that energy. And with that, ended up starting Makers Lab in 2014 and just kind of took off from there.

But without Freak Out, there would be no Makers Lab. And so Freak Out is definitely the beginning of this. That's the beginning of this origin story.

CD: Okay, so before like we we talk more about later life, we really just skipped the part where you fell in love and got married…

LLP: Oh yeah! [laughing]

CD: So I'm interested in hearing about that, though I also want to hear more about Black Lesbian Mafia, but I'll ask you that after we talk about your relationships. I am curious about how dating was for you as a lesbian, how that's changed for you now. But yeah, just feel free to talk about how dating has been for you and meeting somebody you wanted to marry.

LLP: Dating as a Black lesbian, it wasn't difficult in DC. Like, I felt like I did okay. I met lots of like really smart, dynamic, funny folks that I wanted to hang out with and connect. I mean, a lot of those relationships were short-lived, but really enjoyed the type of people I got to meet and hang out with.

It was in, was it 2007? I connected with Amanda and we got married in 2009. And, you know, although we ended up getting divorced -- I think it was finalized in 2015-- Amanda will always be one of the most important people in my life who like loved me and supported me when honestly I wasn't always loving and supporting myself. And so I'm really thankful for that partnership and for her.

But so that ended, and you know, my divorce was hard on me, even though it was my idea. It was a very dark time in my life. And I think that probably led to me drinking more. And also I lost a lot of community. So when we talk about community, I sometimes say, and it's not like our friends had to pick, but in some ways it was just like, I felt like I needed a new life and I wanted to be seen differently.

And so I ended up kind of separating myself from some of those friendships and then went on this journey to find like different friends and form basically a whole new community. Especially I would say during those Makers Lab days. So while Makers Lab was taking off though, my active addiction to alcohol was also taking off. And so it was like all this stuff happening at once. But it was also during that time too, I started to explore gender more.

And so there was like so much happening that I would say when it came to dating at that point, I actually found it a lot more challenging because I was dealing with addiction, I was dealing with growing a company, and I was also dealing with not liking myself. And so if that's the place that you're in energetically it can be hard to date because it's just like Yeah, I didn't really know what to do with myself. And so I don't even know if I presented myself in such a way that people would be like, Oh, Lee is even interested in dating.

I think the story was Well, Lee loves to throw these events and parties and that's what he's focused on and so I didn't really even…there were like hookups and stuff like that, but it's probably only been like this year that I've seriously even explored dating as something that seems like it's important to me. And you know the story I told myself too was, I was like, Oh as a trans man there's not gonna be that many people that are interested in me. I don't believe that anymore, right?

CD: Okay.

LLP:Yeah, but that's taken a lot of growth, right, because it's been proven not to be true.

CD: Like you've had- it's been proven not to be true.

LLP: Like I do just fine. Like, yeah, I'm okay. You know, my beard connects. [both laughing]

You know, the beard connects. It's full. You know, I got cheese plates. You know, I can do it myself. No, but like real talk, I got sober.

I love myself. I take care of myself. And so as I've leveled up and glowed up or whatever they like to say, then I think it makes it easier to date because then people respond to what it is I'm putting out in the universe. So I don't worry about those things anymore.

CD: Sure. Do you care to talk about your sobriety?

LLP: Yeah, of course. Yeah, I love to talk about sobriety and the importance of recovery to my life. And you know, I also like to tell people, so my journey in recovery actually started back in 2004. Like that is the first time I had…what do they like to call it? A “wake up call”, right? But I didn’t go to rehab for the first time. And again, that's a privilege, right? A lot of people don't even have the opportunity to go to rehab. I didn't go to rehab until 2016, right?

Got shipped off to Minnesota after some stuff went down. But even with that, like I would have these stints of three months sober, and then fall off the wagon, and then get four months under my belt. So it wasn't until April of 2019 when I went to another treatment program that it “stuck”. And so this is my longest time being sober. So I think I'm like, I don't know, a year and eight months? I don't track time anymore.

But, so one of the things is with Maker's Lab, we were around from 2014 to 2017 doing really well, having these dope ass parties in the basement of Tropicalia, but I was a wreck.I actually don't remember most of those times. I was a steamer, right? And I had to watch recap videos to see what the shit looked like. So it was like in 2017, I closed our doors because that was when I realized I needed to take care of myself. And because I had relapsed and done some other stuff. So I got some time under my belt and then it was this past March or April I was like, Well, I feel good. I feel like myself. I am embracing recovery. I'm gonna relaunch Maker's Lab. But we're gonna have this focus on zero proof events. And so we're not gonna be talking about alcohol and all these other kinds of things. And we're going to show people other ways to celebrate. And actually, I wanted to come back in March. I came back with the idea in March and we had some ideas for programming and then the ‘Rona happened.

CD: The Rona, yeah. Like completely threw everything.

LLP: But yeah, I'm very open and upfront about being a person in recovery because I'm obviously not the only person who’s struggled with substances. And so I feel like if people are comfortable about it, they should talk about it so that people realize that they're not alone. Because I think often it's like, I'm the only one dealing with this issue and you're not. There's resources and support.

And if people want to quit drinking, it's something they can try and get the support that they need and see all the changes, because it saved my life. And this is the happiest I've ever been. And a big part of that is recovery.

CD: Yeah. Do you know why you were drinking?

LLP: I mean, a lot of it is anxiety, I would say. So I would go to the club and I'd be like, Ooh, I wanna talk to her. And at the time I'd be like, Well, I just need to have like one drink and that'll like loosen me up. But one quickly became five, quickly became 10... I think after my divorce, I just had a lot of feelings that I wasn't processing. And so I’d use alcohol to cover them. And also a lot of it was when I started to accept that I was trans. I didn't want to be trans, you know, it just felt like, Oh shit, like this isn't gonna be easy. Is the world gonna like love me and respect me and be okay with who I am?

And so as I've come into my own and my confidence has increased, I've just realized I don't need alcohol, right, to do any of those things. So I feel like I'm doing well without it. And I think about all the issues that it did cause for me. And so I'll just keep drinking my tonic, you know, and my two limes.

CD: Is that your go-to? Tonic with two limes?

LLP: Tonic with two limes, sometimes cranberry juice. But I'm even getting to the point now, even when the world opens up, I don't actually know if I'll be in spaces a lot, at bars and stuff, because it doesn't really serve me and who I am anymore. And so I just want to create spaces where folks who don't drink don't have to be in a bar to hang out. Like, what are the other spaces that we can create where there's not a drop of alcohol even in sight?

Because that can be triggering for some people, you know?

CD: Of course, yeah. Yeah, so I want to go back to something you just said, which is that you didn't want to be trans. And you said it was just more like, Oh, shit, like, this is a thing that's happening. So can you talk a bit about how you came to the realization of your transness? I know you referenced the YouTube rabbit hole earlier. Can you talk about how you came to understand it, came to be okay with it?

LLP: Well, so, you know, I'm like a community dad, pops, uncle…a lot of things.

And so one of my sons is a trans man. And so I remember when he came out to me, and at that point I still identified as a Black lesbian, he was like, “Hey, I just want you to know that I'm trans.” And I was like, “Huh?” And I was like, “You don't have to be like the white ones and take the hormones and do all that.” And like, you know, just a very ridiculous response, like not as supportive as I should have been. And that's my own internalized transphobia, right?

So, watching him and his journey, and seeing how he blossomed and grew into the person that he's meant to be, right? And then with a lot of the Makers Lab stuff, that was the first time I was meeting folks who identified as trans and genderqueer. And I was just like, Oh, you can do that? Like, you know what I mean? And so it was like, these are the terms that they're using, and I could be genderqueer, and there's different pronouns, and stuff like that.

So I would say, yeah, those Makers Lab days piqued my interest. And then…well, it started with Melvin and Maker's Lab, and then just like watching YouTube videos and being like, Oh, there's lots of people like me.

CD: Right, yeah.

LLP: And starting to give myself permission to even explore that side of me. And I think that's-

CD: When was this?

LLP: Huh?

CD: When was this? How long ago?

LLP: 2015, 2015, 2016. And that 2015 is when I started going by “Lee”. I didn't change my name legally until 2017, but 2015 is when I started going by Lee. And so I also think with a divorce, like when I was searching for this new friend group, I think I was also in some ways searching for younger people because they were in some ways more accepting, and also had the language to describe who I was.

Like there's tons of like Black lesbians my age who probably would identify as trans and things like that. But at some point I think they're probably afraid to take that next step. And it's just like, this kind of is what it is for me, right? If I hang out with people in their, you know, early to mid thirties, then they have a lot of friends who may identify as trans, and genderqueer, and gender nonconforming and non-binary. And so there's more flexibility and acceptance of the journey and having different journeys.

So that's kind of how it happened is I had to see other people, and then I could see myself and then realize in seeing those people, that ultimately I have to do it my own way. And there's no one way to do gender or masculinity. And so also giving myself permission to like play around with it, and to change my mind, and to know that what I look like right now, I might not look like in a year. Like right now I really identify with having a beard, but maybe a year from now I won't, right?

And so it's up to me to figure that out. Like I don't have…there's no rule book for it.

CD: Yeah, I like that you bring up the rule book because that was one of the most, like even in my own coming out, one of the first barriers was all the language. I was like, Oh, this is like a language I'm not fluent in. I don't know what all of these words mean.

LLP: I am fluent in queer. [laughing] Actually, I'm not fluent in queer at all.

CD: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's changing every day. So sometimes it's just hard to keep up. But I do feel like the language can be limiting. And one thing that I think is interesting that happens in marginalized communities is you kind of don't have to play by the rules because you have some sort of…like there's freedom in the margins, right? But people will just make their own rules. You're not adhering to mainstream rules, but now you have a ton of other rules. And with that comes new language, and new terms.

And so do you think if the language had been available to you earlier, that you would have been able to access that understanding of yourself earlier? Or do you think everything kind of had to happen the way that it did for you to arrive here?

LLP: I think everything had to happen the way that it did. And now I'm actually happy that it happened the way it did, and the way this story, my life has unfolded.

Like, when I think about DC when I first got here, like my fondness of being a part of lesbian and gay communities is really special to me. And so I'm glad I had that experience and those stories and those connections to people. And at the same time, I really appreciate the connections that I have now identifying as a trans man, and the new relationships and the communities that I'm a part of, right?

And so I think it's just all part of the journey and I'm appreciative of all of it, right? And I think it's also, in some ways, I think it's important for me to show that you can “come out” at 35, 36. Because the thing is, sometimes with YouTube, and this is, I also understand why older people probably don't want to be on YouTube, but you get on the YouTube and it's all young men like in their 20s. And I'm like, I don't like them. And they all work out and drink protein shakes. That is not my life. So I took from it what I could, and I still saw parts of myself in it, but I also think showing folks that you can do this in your 30s, too. Being trans is just not a young folks thing. And so, yeah, I'm kind of glad that it happened the way that it did.

And I'm in some ways trying to figure out how to be, and like in a lot of ways, look, I have transitioned publicly, right? People knew me as Alisa, even when they knew me as Lee, but now to be Lee with a beard and mustache and looking very different than the person that started Makers Lab in 2014. But people seeing a visible Black trans man who transitioned later in life, I think it's important for folks to see that.

CD: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So one thing I like to ask about is work because I think it's not a thing that we think about too much when we think about identity and who we are but it's where we spend a lot of time. And so I'm just interested to know how transitioning publicly, as you put it, how that impacted your work life. Has being trans even come up as an issue? Is it a non-issue at work? What does that look like for you? And I guess to do that, you also have to tell the people what you do to the extent that you're comfortable.

LLP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it's…so I often change jobs. But I think sometimes the changing of jobs also coincides with where I am in my journey. So, like 2014 and ‘15, when I changed my name to Lee, the job at the time, because at that point, I was still Alisa at work, and then I was Lee outside of work. And then sometimes I would be at events and people would be like, Lee, and [my coworkers would] be like, “Who are they talking about?”

So then I basically went to leadership and I was like-- and I didn't even say I was trans-- I was just like, “I would like to start going by Lee.” And they're like, “Oh yeah, whatever, we'll change your email, just let us know when you're ready.” So I changed my email, but then I was like, “Oh, I need to take time off,” and I was up front. I was like, “I need to have top surgery.” They're like, “Okay, whatever, do your thing, we support you,” and so, really great environment.

And then-

CD: What industry is this?

LLP: I was working for a small nonprofit. But then I left that job to go out to California to get sober, and so I left that job. Then I came back to DC, and it was about 2017 when I got my next full-time job. And I think what ended up happening to that one, I was already going by Lee at that point. I'd already had top surgery, but that's when I started testosterone. And so that's when my voice would crack in meetings and things like that. And so those people were there for that part of the journey.

Then I ended up leaving that position to be in the position I am in now, and I quote-unquote “pass”. So at my new job or my current job, some people know I'm trans, but some people don't. Whereas the job before this one, everyone kind of like, watched that transition and the acne and all the stuff that came with it. By the time I got to my current job, and I actually work for DC government, which has been pretty supportive. But yeah, people don't know unless I disclose. But with that, though, I will say, I'm very…I do a lot of programming at my job, and so I'm very vocal about the inclusion of queer and trans people, Black people.

And so if need be, then I let people know that I'm a trans person in that, right? And so I'm visible, I'm pretty visible if I need to be, because I think it's also important for folks to know that there are trans folks who work there, but I also understand why people would choose not to disclose, right?

CD: Yeah.

LLP: I'm okay with it. So yeah.

CD: Yeah. And I think that's like an important note, right? Like there are no rules. You should disclose to the extent that you're comfortable.

LLP: Yeah. There's no rules. This is all about safety.

CD: Yeah.

LLP: And people should be able to do whatever they want with their journey. And so like, who am I to judge if somebody wants to quote-unquote “be out”? Like that's not their responsibility. So whether it's being out as a trans person, being out as a queer person, whatever, like people's processes are processed, and so I don't hold anything against anybody. Do you.

CD: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So what I want to ask you is, if you try and think of the line on the identity evolution journey… do you think that evolution is continuous? That your identity may shift? And if so, how do you predict that might look?

LLP: I hope it's continuous. I hope I'm not done. I'm only 42. I don't look it, but I'm only 42, right? So I don't want to feel like this is it, right? So I just want to be open to whatever's next and whatever that looks like. Right now, I use he/him pronouns, but maybe I might want to go back to like they, them. Maybe.

CD: Did you formerly use they, them?

LLP: I formerly used they/them, yeah.

CD: Okay.

LLP: Yeah, I went from she/her to they/them, and as I became more masculine-presenting, started to use like he/him, but who knows what other like pronouns might come out. Like I, I literally have no idea what's going to happen because this is not the life I thought I was going to have as like a little girl in St. Louis, Missouri.

And so I'm open to whatever, and I'm actually excited for what’s next. I don't want to ever feel boxed in. I just want to be able to live life and love myself in all of the stages, and be open to all the opportunities that come my way, and ways to explore life and gender and sexuality and everything else.

CD: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. So just to close out, can you share advice with the people. Do you have any words of wisdom, or advice?

LLP: Ooh, what are my words of wisdom in my old age? I think the words that come to mind are like, patience and grace, right? Like, I don't even think I have this stuff figured out now, right? But what I am willing to do is learn and talk to people. And if reading's your thing, like reading books. If it's watching movies…you know, obviously we need more representations of us. We need our stories on a lot more platforms than they are on, but you know there are films. There is YouTube University, there's IG stories, right? And so it's like exploring and learning from other people's stories and seeing how that applies to you, and being okay if it doesn't. Being willing to throw out the rule book because it doesn't mean anything anyway.

And just being patient because you don't have to have this figured out. But what you do have to do is be open to learning and finding ways to love yourself no matter what in this process. Because for a long time, even running these streets of DC and running around the basement of Tropicalia, sometimes I'm not sure how much I actually loved myself. And now I do. And so doing the work and loving yourself and wherever you are in the journey.

 And look, I'm very fortunate.I have a very amazing bio family, and I have an amazing chosen family. But if your bio family can't support you in the ways that you need to be supported, then you need to go find the chosen family that's gonna be there for you, and then those are gonna be the people that uplift you and support you when you're going through those tough times and you don't know how to be patient with yourself, and you don't know how to practice grace. Let those people love on you during the tough times, the good times, all the times So yeah, so: family, community, patience, watch stories, make your own stories.

That's the other thing. We got all this technology. Use those iPhones.

CD: Right.

LLP: Tell the world your story. And just love on yourself. I think, I don't know if that's cliche, but it actually does matter because you're worthy of happiness and joy and all the things that you want. It's okay to want those things and to find ways to get those things.

CD: Yeah, no, I think that's super important. And it's such a key part of the journey. And I think it does get under-emphasized because it sounds like a cliche. And so it's almost like when someone says it, you don't recognize that they really mean it.

LLP: No, you really have to do the work to love yourself. It's super critical. No, like, real talk, I don't think people know, it's like…I literally have a motivation mirror.

And I look at myself every day, I have motivational quotes all around it. I say affirmations every day. Like, I have to remind myself every day to love myself, love on myself, that I am supposed to be here, I am worthy. Like, all of those things, I don't take any of that for granted. So it's just like I'm supposed to drink water every day-- which I don't always do the best job of-- I will do my affirmations every day. I will do the things necessary to build myself up, to be able to face this world, face myself, all those things, right?

CD: Right, yeah. It's conscious work. Yeah, that's awesome. I want a motivational mirror. I'm like, I have a mirror, I have Post-its.

LLP: Yeah, it's a whole…it takes about like 15, 20 minutes in my morning by the time I'm done with like motivational stuff and affirmations, but it's totally necessary.

CD: Worth it, yeah. So, yeah. Awesome, well thank you for being here, Lee, and for dropping your words of wisdom, telling your story, and for continuing to provide DC with your safe spaces, and now zero-proof spaces, as well. Even virtually, for the people listening, super impressive virtual programming happening here.

LLP: Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.