Season 1, Episode 2: Iesha S

CD: Welcome to OutSpoken Noire. Today we have Iesha Shaw. Hi Iesha.

IS: Hello!

CD: Hi, and thank you for being here. Iesha is like super cool and sitting in a semi-truck right now while doing this interview. So that’s a first. I just want to let people know your pronouns are she/her, so that's how I'll be referring to you during this interview. And we're really just going to get started by jumping right in. So why don't you go ahead and tell me, when I say tell me about your coming out story, feel free to interpret that however you want, and just go ahead and kind of talk us through it.

IS:  Absolutely. Well, my coming out story, I did it at work, which is kind of the worst idea because it's a super like intimate and emotional conversation to have with your parent.

CD: Oh, so you had a coming out with your parent at work.

IS: [laughing] At work, yeah.

CD: Oh, okay. I thought you meant to your co-workers. Okay.

IS: [laughing] Yeah, yeah, they knew. [My coworkers] knew, so that was cool. But it was just expressing that moment to my mom. But we worked for the same employer, just different positions. So I got to work that morning, and it was just weighing heavily on my mind. I couldn't get it off. So I was just thinking of a way to tell her.

So I took a moment. I talked to my supervisor, and I was like, “Look, I have to do this. I have to take this break. I gotta go talk to my mom.” Because like, I feel like once you get to your “coming out” part of your life, you are already exposed [as gay] at some point or in some way. So…

CD:  That you have already been exposed by that point?

IS: Right. And I had my third girlfriend, so it was just like [laughing] I had to get it out there because the rumors were spreading and I was just like, Look, I gotta tell my mom.

So I walk up to my mom and I started, you know, explaining everything to her. I'm like, “I'm gay, I have a girlfriend and it’s this girl that's been over our house multiple times. That is actually my girlfriend. It's not a friendship.”

And this whole time I'm just crying,  like crying crying crying crying crying and my mom's just like, “Okay.” She's like nonchalant with it because basically she told me that she's always felt that I was gay. So it was it was definitely more of a moment for me rather than her because I couldn't pull it back together after that moment we shared. I had I ended up having to leave work. It was too much for me.

CD:  But it sounds like she took it well.

IS:  She did, she did. She took it well. But as I mentioned by the time I got to that part in my life, I was kind of already exposed

CD: So, can you tell me then about how it affected you? Because you said that she was basically okay with it.

IS: Right.

CD: But you were so emotional that you had to go home. [Both laughing] So, how did that feel for you in that moment?

IS: Um, just like a weight off your chest, really, like when you're holding something that really bothers you, you're not free. I felt compressed just holding those motions and being compressed and not being able to be myself. So I felt like after I released that it was definitely just like…I felt free.

CD: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. And so what happened after that? Did anything change? I mean, you tell your mom, you go home, you kind of collect yourself, you're feeling free… did that shift anything for you?

IS: It did. I was able to be in my skin like 24/7 and not be ashamed of who I am and not hide myself from my mom. And then after that, we spoke to my siblings. I have two brothers -- two older brothers -- and one older sister. So we explained it to them and they were very receptive of my identity. My new identity. My brothers definitely cracked some horrible jokes, some lesbian jokes [laughing]. But all in all, it was it was all good. They gave me that comfort as far as like, “We won't let people talk about you. We can [tease you] and have those moments together, but we won't let other people converse about you in a negative way.” And that was like super dope to me.

CD: Yeah. Where are you in terms of birth order with your brothers? Are you youngest, oldest, middle?

IS: I'm the baby. I'm the baby. So of course, everybody's like super protective over me and I think for my oldest brother, it was harder for him, but now we have the closest relationship. And the brother that's two years older than me, for him, he always makes strange jokes that I don't agree with -- well, not really joking. But I’ve always known that for sure I want to have kids with another woman and I want to be married to another woman And I don't think that he agrees with that as much. So he’s not too open with my partners.

CD: Yeah, okay. Okay, and so I want to go back to something you said earlier.

You were saying that you feel that by the time people come out, often it seems to be the case that people already knew. Maybe before you even reckon it with yourself. Is that what happened to you? Like you came out to people and they were like, “Yeah girl! [We know.]” Or like was it a discovery process for everybody?

IS: Yeah, it was very obvious for me. Like I said, it was my third girlfriend by then. And I really felt connected in that particular relationship which is why I decided to come out on that relationship because the first two were kind of like experiments for me so I wasn't for sure if I was gay so I  needed that confirmation before I came out.

CD: Yeah, and so experiments in the sense that you were still getting your footing in terms of how you identify and feeling comfortable with it?

IS: Exactly.

CD: Okay.

IS: Because I've dated guys before, and I like guys, but the emotional connection just wasn't there So I just felt like, yeah, not for me.

CD: Right. And so there's different types of coming out. I always feel there's coming out to, you know, your co-workers. There's coming out to your parents or your siblings. When did you come out to yourself? When do you consider that to have happened?

IS: I think when I experimented the first time with just being comfortable and saying hey –well… I'll say my last relationship with a guy. Like at that point. I knew that this wasn't it for me. Like I can't date men. So at that point I decided hey, something's different here. So I decided to try something different and live as myself.

CD: Yeah.

IS: And I can't really say “live as myself” because I never knew that I was going to be gay. I had no idea.

CD: Right. Well, no, same. I get it. I also was like, Oh! Look what I just found out about myself at almost 30, great! [Both laughing]

IS: It felt comfortable. It felt more natural.

CD: Yeah. Yeah. And what you said really resonated with me because the first sort of dot connected for me, so to speak, in my last relationship with a guy and I was like Uh-uh, nope. This isn't it. This isn't it. But then I guess what I want to ask you about is…so it's like, OK, this isn't for me. Like it's not men. What, though, made you realize that [for you] it's women? To actually make that last leap. How did you get to I'm interested in women, and can you remember the first time you felt attracted to a woman?

IS: Yes. For me, it's emotional connection. Without that emotional connection, everything else just won't mesh. You can have all the sex in the world that you want. You can hang out as much as you want. You know, you can do all these things together with a person and share that space. But if the emotional connection is not there, then it won't work.

So as I experienced those things with a woman, my first girlfriend, it opened up a new level of love. It was like a level up, so that for me made me realize hey, I'm really happy in this space. More happy than I was in my other spaces. Yeah, so that's what made me feel like Okay this is what I prefer.

CD: Yeah, okay. And so then how did you set about dating women? You said you were on your third girlfriend when you came out, but what [came] first? For example, asking a girl out, or expressing feelings to a girl. What was that like?

IS: Well, the first time, with my first girlfriend, [that] was really bold meeting with her. Because I knew that this girl worked at a certain restaurant and I was like, Hey, I'm going to go in there. I'm going to talk to this girl and then I'm going to see if it works.

So that's exactly what I did. I went into the restaurant. She was a server or something at that restaurant, and I left my number. And she ended up calling me and that was my first time ever, I guess they say, “trying” a woman. So I was very bold. I knew what I wanted, and I was very confident and I was gonna do it, and if I got rejected, I was okay with that. I needed to see.

CD: Right, right, okay. And so let's like skip ahead a little bit to after you came out, did anything change for you after that in terms of how you viewed yourself now that you're finally out to your mom and your brothers? Like just how you related to the world? Did any of that kind of change for you?

IS: It did. Just learning how to love, period, was different for me because I feel like when you're doing something that you're not completely comfortable with, you miss things or you don't love it completely. So that new type of relationship was different and it was new for me, and and I loved that that changed me a lot. I started to be more affectionate, more emotional, just things in myself that I never knew was there came out.

CD: Okay. And so who was around you at this time in terms of your friends? Like I know a lot of people that I've been speaking to, they already had friends who were like, maybe also trying to figure themselves out, or, you know, everybody was kind of gay but nobody was saying so. Some [interviewees] only hung out with guys [growing up]. Like, what was your circle of friends like? And also, just for a timeline for the people listening, like, about what age is this for you?

IS: Whew, this is like twenties. 21, 22. So this was definitely a fun period in my life [laughing]. So [having fun is] exactly what I was doing.

But yeah, I had like a couple of close friends at that time. I had different groups of friends that I would hang out with. All girls, maybe one guy, one “questionable” guy [both laughing]. And we were living life. We were having fun. [Long pause] Ooh, those were the good old days! [laughing]

CD: [laughing] I feel like you just went somewhere in your mind.

IS: Yeah!

CD:  I'm glad you had a good time. So you had supportive friends.

IS: Absolutely.

CD: Okay, did you already know where to go and where to find women you were interested in dating? Well, you were with a girlfriend at this time, but was it important to you to find lesbian spaces or queer spaces to party? To “fellowship” as Black people like to say?

IS: Not as much, not as much. I think when you're younger you are more malleable with social environments. So I really didn't care that much. I can hang out in all types of crowds and cultures. So that wasn't as much of importance to me then as it is now. Now I want to be around more people that are like me [and] that understand me more so they don't offend. I don't offend them and they don't offend me.

CD: Yeah. What changed?

IS: Sometimes you just get tired of people not being comfortable. Like if you're not comfortable then you shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be around you. But I'm not going to box myself in to not be myself, you know what I mean? I want to be myself and I want people that are like-minded like me, so I think hanging out -- not to say anything bad about straight people! I love straight people, but some people just aren't comfortable and they make it weird and we don't like weird stuff. So it's just like, I'm just gonna keep my space, hang out here, hang out with LGBT crowd and that's it.

CD: Great. So where are you living now?

IS: I live in Atlanta.

CD: Okay. Oh, interesting. I just did an interview with someone else in Atlanta. They said Atlanta -- this is a quote -- they said, “Atlanta's an interesting place to be queer.”

That was in response to me saying, “Oh, Atlanta! That's a fun place to be gay.” And they were like, “It's an interesting place.” So what is your take on Atlanta? I know it gets kind of labeled as this sort of gay oasis in the South.

IS: It is, it is. I can say that it's very gay, but it is a place for people to have fun, not date. Dating can be challenging because most people are young and they might not be on the same page, so you really… well, it depends. It depends on who you hang out with.

CD: Yeah.

IS: Because some people are, you know, party crowds, but you have a lot of people who are responsible and taking care of things and adulting. I'm in the adulting stage. So I am not going out to every party wanting to hang out every night. You know, I want to go to a poetry night. I want to go hike a trail. So it's different. You have different crowds that you could be around.

CD: Okay, yeah, so that's nice that you have options. I think – and this is a segue to a question about you, so I'm not going to continue to talk about this other interview -- but I'm interested in the fact that I got two folks from Atlanta in the same day, but I think her thing was that she identifies more as queer and felt that Atlanta is very gay which is different from being queer.

So, how do you identify? What words do you use to think of yourself and how does that affect how you move through the world and sort of relate to the world around you?

IS: It's very cliché because I know people get tired of hearing this, but I identify as me. A lot of people box you in and say hey, you're a stemme, or you're femme,  you're stud…

A lot of people call me a stud because I dress masculine, but I'm feminine, so when you get into labels and all of that it kind of boxes people's identity in and I don't want to be that. I want to be myself. I want to be categorized as Iesha. That's how I feel about it.

CD: So then my question would be if you're just Iesha and you're like I'm not picking a label what made you think OK, I want to do this interview for a black lesbian podcast?

IS: Um…

 CD: And that's not a trick question! You can’t offend me. [both laughing]

IS: Because I feel like you and I can relate in some way. I'm a lesbian, you're a lesbian, so at the end of the day, we're supporting each other in one way or another. So being that I can share my story, and you're taking other people’s stories that may be similar, or alike, or different, we're all grouped together as far as Black women. And supporting Black women. So at the end of the day I am going to support you, and I want to share my story, as well.

CD: Yeah, yeah. So I've been thinking a lot recently as this project develops, about backing off of the strict branding as lesbian because that seems to be kind of disappearing as a more commonly used word.

People seem to favor -- even women-- seem to favor gay or queer or, Iesha [laughing]

IS: [laughing]A me.

CD: Right, you know, like, you're the label.

IS: Right.

CD: And so then I was like, well, I want to tell this story and I want to talk about people for whom that label still resonates, even if it's not one they actively use. And so I'm just interested in your thinking around the word lesbian and what is your impression of it when you hear it?

IS: I think it's both good and bad. Good because we do get to identify [as lesbian], and people know who we are and what this culture brings.

But in a different way, I feel like we can be criticized -- and I'm trying to think of the word-- but people look at us in a negative light, or shed negative light on us being gay or lesbian or whatever we may be. [People’s understanding of the word] sometimes sheds a negative light on us that most people don't want. And that's why I choose to identify as whatever I am, however you perceive [me]. Whatever your perception is [of me], then that's what it is. But sometimes I feel like when people do label themselves, that it can bring a negative light. Like, transgender is something that the moment a person says that they're transgender, it may offend and cause that person to be harmed, and it’s just, it's sad. Nowadays it's really sad.

CD: Yeah, yeah that's interesting. I do think there's a history in the Black community specifically, or especially, about kind of suppressing identity like not naming the thing

IS: Right.

CD: There's some level of safety afforded to you if you don't pick a label that is stigmatized.

IS: Right.

CD: And everyone’s just willing to just ignore it even if it’s evident. Like, we've all been to church and like the choir director…

IS: Exactly. Because [ultimately] that's true equality;  not being identified as anything except for you.

CD: Yeah, it's a luxury.

IS: Exactly.

CD: Yeah. That's interesting. I hadn't really thought of not [labeling] yourself as anything as a privilege that people might want to embrace. But that makes a lot of sense to me. Well, thank you for that.

So, I'm always interested in the ways that identity affects how people move through their life in different ways. And so we talked about your coming out. We talked about your family relationships a bit. Now I'm kind of interested in two things. I'll start with dating and you can you can tell me to mind my business at whatever point… [laughing]

IS: [mimes wiping sweat off of forehead]

CD: Yeah, wipe this one away at whatever point feels comfortable for you. But when thinking of women who present as more masculine, as you were describing earlier, but you're very feminine in how you see yourself and how you behave, so to speak.

IS: Right.

CD: Does that show up in the kind of women who approach you? Does it show up in strange ways with gender roles? Because that's still an issue even in lesbian relationships or queer relationships. Like how does that impact your dating life and your relationships?

IS: Whew. Oh my goodness…[laughing]

CD: [laughing] Yeah, get some water.

IS: Oh man, because I'm masculine the gender role thing is definitely something that presents itself in my relationships. But I try to shy away from it. I truly believe that if you are a good person, then just be that.

CD: Right.

IS: And do what you want to do for your partner. Why try to be the man in the relationship or wear the pants in the relationship? I'm like, no, if you're good at deciding or I'm good at cooking and cleaning, that's what I'm gonna do. And I'm a woman anyway, so I'm very domesticated. So I like to cook, clean. I don't think that's everyone.

CD: Oh no, you can do all of that, thanks [laughing]

IS: Exactly, and I'm a Virgo so I'm very nurturing, too. I’m like, very organized… I like to be romantic, and I'm going to do those things regardless. That has nothing to do with the gender role. If I was a guy, I'd probably still be soft. They’d probably call me soft.

So yeah, I definitely I think that impacts my relationship. I do get approached by feminine women more often, but I've dated what they call “studs”. So I'm very fluid in my dating.

CD: Okay, yeah. Yeah. And what about at work? That's the other thing that I'm curious about is whether how you present and how you show yourself to the world shows up in your work, or impacts the work you do. And you can also, of course, tell the people what you do.

IS: Right now, I'm a truck driver, but I used to work in the corporate realm, as well. So I dress up as me and I come to work as me. So I'm going to wear some khakis and a button-down and I just show up as myself, but I don't hide who I am from people.

I'm very relaxed, and okay with, and comfortable with who I am. So I don't think that it bothers people. [As long as] people just…don't act weird.

CD: Does it feel like an advantage to be more “masculine”-presenting in an industry like trucking…

IS: Right…

CD: …versus maybe more feminine?

IS: Um, nowadays these men that are trucking, they don't care if you present as masculine, feminine they are on the way! They don't care! They will watch you walk from one location to the next and just stare at you.

CD: Oh yeah?

IS:  Yes, it's very weird [laughing].

CD: Really?

IS: Because this is a very male-saturated type of business, so it's expected.

CD: Yeah. So then reflecting on what's been sort of advantageous to you, or what experiences have been advantageous to you, in terms of forming your identity. Are there any sort of moments you can think of in your life that were kind of critical in helping you come to understand yourself as you do today?

IS: just being okay with [being yourself] and learning along the way. A lot of people are living their life as homosexual but not being okay with it. So I think that that really holds a lot of weight in how you feel about yourself. So if you don't overcome those things it can become a really rough situation for you.

So in my situation, immediately I was able to accept myself as I am and ask for forgiveness and repent and just know that this is me and I can't change who I am or how I am for anything. I've tried to change it, but it's just in you and I've accepted that.

CD: Asking for forgiveness and repenting for what?

IS: I mean, everyone says that this is a sin, and it is a sin.  But I think…

CD: You think it’s a sin?

IS: I think it's a sin.

CD: Oh, okay…

IS: I think it’s a sin, but there are millions of sins. If we live being afraid, we won't live at all. So, you have to ask for forgiveness. Even if it's not for being homosexual, like just the things that you do in relationships, and how you treat people… sometimes you have to ask for forgiveness for that, as well. So, I've done some bad stuff as a lesbian and some bad stuff as a heterosexual, so it's just like I still have to ask forgiveness for doing things and also allowing things to be done to me.

CD: So wait, and so do you think of yourself before you came out as heterosexual and then when you came out as gay or lesbian, or a me, as you put it? Like is there a before and after for you?

And I'm only saying that because, like I said earlier, you and I had similar experiences in terms of not knowing [we were lesbian] until we knew right? But I think of myself as having been like gay all along, but just like, unbeknownst to me. You know what I’m saying?

IS: Oh, okay.  Yes, same, I felt like I was gay all along, but I did not do “gay things” you know what I mean? So I wasn't looking at other girls or giving girls extra attention. Like, my friends were my friends and that's just what they were. And it wasn't until I chose to explore more that I decided that that was for me.

CD: Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, because we just met, but it seems like you prefer to see yourself and other people just as, like, come as you are. Like, you are who you are, you know, leave the labels at the door.

And so is there maybe a part of you then that -- resents isn't the word, but, like… is it kind of annoying that you have to explain anything at all when it comes to your sexuality? In a way that people who identify as straight or who are more sort of hetero-conforming don't have to? Like does that feel burdensome to you or is it just sort of a part of your life?

IS: Yeah, it’s just a part of my life because everyone has their own experience. So I can't tell you, even though we share similar stories, I can't tell you how you should have experienced something. I can't tell your story. So I am very open to people just being who they are, explaining their story.

If they don't want to share it, that's fine. but I'm definitely okay with explaining, and [I’m OK with] not explaining for the people who don't ask. But if you don't ask I probably won't tell you.

CD: Yeah. I want to go back to your faith, and your shirt says “God is dope” for people who are listening…

IS: Yeah, and my chain. [laughs]

CD: It says “God is dope” too?

IS: Yes.

CD: Oh, okay. We’re “God” down to the socks over here [both laughing] So what role does faith play in your life? And if at all, where's the intersection between your identity as a Christian and as a lesbian or a queer person.

IS: I believe that a relationship with God is important. So throughout my life I've had some really tough moments, a lot of depression here recently, like within the last three years, and I feel like if I did not seek God in those moments that it could have ended tragically, you know? So I feel like that changed me for the better, so definitely I don't play about my relationship with God [both laughing]. And I don’t judge people for not having a relationship with God because a lot of people are spiritual.

So I don't judge people for not having a relationship with God, but would I date them? Probably not because they won't fit with what I have going on. But definitely my relationship with God is important to me.

CD: Yeah. And so it's interesting you live in Atlanta because Atlanta is a Southern city. It's a very Black city. Both of those groups, Southerners and Black people, love them some Jesus [both laughing].

So do you think, easier for you to find partners or women to date who share your faith or do you find it difficult?

Because I -- full disclosure to anyone listening --since I've been an adult, like since I turned 18, I've lived in Northern cities. I've lived in -- well, D.C. D.C. is arguable. D.C. likes to tell people they're not [Southern], but they are. And then [I lived] in New York. And so these sort of liberal bubbles where it's sometimes not even considered cool to say you're a Christian or that kind of thing.

IS: Right.

CD: Faith doesn't play as heavy a role in like day-to-day culture as it does in the South. And I've never dated in the South. So I'm interested in hearing from you [whether] you find that there are more partners? Less?

IS: Yes and no. I've been to several churches in Atlanta and I do find that sometimes there aren't a lot of gay people in the church. It's different, but when you're accepted, that's how I find that it's okay. Because whatever church I go to, I'm always accepted. People pray for you and you just feel welcome.

I don't like to feel like I shouldn't be here because I'm gay or I'm sinning, like people just give you that death stare, like what are you doing here like? Like I haven't experienced that yet. And even for New Year's one year -- I did not enjoy it -- but I went to a gay Church.

CD: Yeah.

IS: It was very weird. I never went back.

CD: What is a gay church?

IS: It was a gay pastor. Sorry, Pastor, if you're gonna [listen to] this, but I did not like it.  

CD: Why didn’t you like it?

IS: Um, you can feel energy. You feel energy, right?

CD: Sure.

IS: OK, and I did not get a good energy when I was there. I felt like it was fake to be honest. Just to be frank about it. I just really felt like it was fake and it was more of a “show thing” and not authentic. And that really bothered me. Like, yeah, that really bothered me.

CD: Like the sermon or the way people were worshiping, or just all of it?

IS: Yeah, the worship, just all of it together. Like, I was not feeling it and I went with somebody and I can't say that they… I don't know if they went to that church in real life to actually experience [it] and get an actual taste of what may occur when they brought me. But when I got there, I was like, Oh, wait. So this person said, “Okay, come with me to church...” Like I went to church with someone and it seemed like they had ever even been there. I don't think they had ever been there, because if [I], knowing God and having a relationship with God, if I had been there before that probably would have been a one and done.

CD: Yeah, that's interesting that the gay church was the one where you felt like things were off and you feel generally like when you go into church, it's like a warm and fuzzy welcoming feeling.

IS: Exactly.

CD: Well, well, well [both laughing] I'm like-- I don't even know what to say about that. I'm intrigued.

IS: If you're ever [in Atlanta], you’ve got to go there to experience it and see what it's like. It might be for you. It just wasn't for me.

CD: Yeah, I don't know... [laughing]I don't know.

IS: Okay, well, the reason I asked you about it is because I feel like a lot of people in the LGBTQ community don't have [positive] relationships with God, and a lot of times it's because of how they were treated growing up in the church because of their identity, or the shame that was associated with their identity when they would be in religious spaces, and so they just kind of distance themselves. So I'm thankful to be talking to you because you you have this really healthy relationship with God, or it feels like a strong connection with God. And your identity doesn't affect that. Did you grow up in the church?

IS: I didn't, I didn't. And it's very weird that the way that I found God was in my saddest moments in life, or my toughest moments in life.

CD: Yeah, I think a lot of people find God that way.

IS: Exactly. So I'd been to church, but you know when you're young and you're going to church it's just like Okay. I'm going to church this Sunday with my mom or with my grandparents or whatever, but as an adult I really shied away from church. And when I went through some things in life I decided to seek God and that's where I think like a lot of LGBT [community] should start to see God.  [Maybe] not in church. You may not want to be in church, but just like a personal relationship between you and with God.

CD: Yeah.

IS: So you don't have that interference of feeling like someone's judging you, or feeling like an outcast in church. Like first seek that relationship between you and God and then that way when you do have a church relationship you might you'll feel more comfortable.

CD: And so for anyone listening to this who is kind of grappling with their identity with God, or wanting a stronger connection to God even as they reconcile their own identity, what advice do you have for them? What would that look like to have a healthy relationship as like an LGBTQ person with God? Like, how do you know that you have found God within yourself and that you have a strong relationship with him?

IS: The same way people seek spirituality, they should seek God. So there's a lot of people that believe in moons and rocks. Well, not rocks, I shouldn't say rocks.

CD: Crystals!

IS: Cancel that out, because I don't want them to come for me [laughing]. Crystals and meditating, those things are important, and God is just as important, so if you take the time out of your day to meditate and seek peace and things of that sort just take the time out and sometimes pray.

CD: Yeah.

IS: Like even if you don't know what you're talking about, if you don't know how to start a prayer, you don't know how to pray… just talk to God. And that's how you start to just build that relationship And like I said, sometimes it doesn't have to be inside a church. You can literally study the Bible on your own and worship and praise God on your own.

So, it starts with you and God, that's it. That's all you need. That's the starter kit. [laughing]

CD: You and God, that's a very basic starter kit.  That's very handy [laughing].

 Okay, well that's awesome. So I guess my last question would just be, do you have any further advice? Because you just dropped some gems there, but do you have any other advice to anyone listening to this who has recently come out or is still struggling with that part of themselves, anything you'd like to say to those folks?

IS: Be patient. Be patient. Learning something new definitely takes time. You shouldn't jump in or rush on anything, definitely take your time. Love yourself, love yourself, and love yourself. You will never truly know love unless you start inside you.

CD: Awesome, well thank you so much for talking with me today. And I will, if you're comfortable with it, share your handle on social with folks so they can ask you questions. Maybe they're also on a path with God or something and would like to reach out. Are you okay with that?

IS: Yeah, absolutely. I'm not perfect, though, so don't come for me! [laughing]

CD: Oh, no! No one’s coming for you! [laughing]

IS: Sometimes I like going to the strip club! [both laughing]

CD: That's okay, you can be Christian in the strip club.

IS: That's right. Yeah.

CD: Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for being here, and have a good night.

IS: You're welcome. Thank you.